Riseball - ball rotation axis

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Aug 21, 2008
2,359
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The thumb is most often what gets in the way of good backspin, so she'll probably start to develop bullet spin to start with.
How do you mean? How does the thumb get in the way? I'm curious about what you are saying.
 
Apr 12, 2015
792
93
How do you mean? How does the thumb get in the way? I'm curious about what you are saying.
A lot of times as the fingers slice under the ball, the thumb will get in the way, preventing the fingers from really getting under the ball and the thumb will "bump" the top of the ball, generating bullet spin instead of the proper spin. To get proper spin, the ball must travel either completely over the thumb or under the thumb. Most ladies simply don't have large enough hands for the ball to pass under the thumb without interference which results in bullet spin. This is why thumb off grips are pretty popular among girls. I know in the past you've said you don't really agree with the thumb off concept. That said, a 12" softball looks like a 10" softball in your hands. It looks closer to a 16" softball in my DD's hands 😁

Mike (Javasource) had some nice comments on this comments a few years back. Particularly posts #8 and #10 in this thread:


You'll notice the Garcia "riseball" video posted earlier in this thread is the characteristic "big dot" spin.
 
Last edited:

javasource

6-4-3 = 2
May 6, 2013
1,347
48
Western NY
Hey all,

Long time since I checked in. Hope you are all well.

I personally feel that learning a rise, drop, curve,etc... involves a mindset few have, due in part to how weak and universally different our definition of each pitch is. That said, I start each student with this question:

Is the spin you desire to learn the result of an action... or an object? Until they learn to let go of the natural inclination most have, the pitch they are after will continue to be elusive and deemed difficult to learn.

May sound like an odd way to start... but IMO, until this understanding exists, any effort to master the pitch is relatively futile.
 
Jun 7, 2016
275
43
Mike, Good to see you post! Hope you and yours have been well, and look forward to seeing you chime in from time to time!
 
Aug 21, 2008
2,359
113
A lot of times as the fingers slice under the ball, the thumb will get in the way, preventing the fingers from really getting under the ball and the thumb will "bump" the top of the ball, generating bullet spin instead of the proper spin. To get proper spin, the ball must travel either completely over the thumb or under the thumb. Most ladies simply don't have large enough hands for the ball to pass under the thumb without interference which results in bullet spin. This is why thumb off grips are pretty popular among girls. I know in the past you've said you don't really agree with the thumb off concept. That said, a 12" softball looks like a 10" softball in your hands. It looks closer to a 16" softball in my DD's hands 😁

Mike (Javasource) had some nice comments on this comments a few years back. Particularly posts #8 and #10 in this thread:


You'll notice the Garcia "riseball" video posted earlier in this thread is the characteristic "big dot" spin.
I'm very very (and even more very) aware of the hand size issue that girls (and some boys) have with a 12" ball.

The thing that SOOOOOO many people forget about me is, I wasn't always 6'3 with large hands. I was also an 11-12 year old pitcher with smaller hands trying to learn how to throw a riseball. In that time, and years that followed, I tried every grip possible. Every pitcher I saw with a great riseball, I'd ask how they held it and how they released it. And if you ask 30 different pitchers, you're likely to get about 25 different responses. But I experimented with all of them. Eventually I found the best grip for me and stuck with it. So, it's a little unfair to think or ever imply that I don't understand the trials and tribulations of learning this pitch as a kid.

I am not sure I ever said I "disagree" with the thumb off. Some grips have more advantages than others, there's no question about that. But the spin is the absolute. How that spin is generated is very much an individual choice. Taking the thumb off the ball would require even more hand on the ball, almost putting it all the way into the palm of the hand. On any pitch, the more hand you have on the ball, the slower it will be.

So, bottom line, if your kid likes her riseball grip and is obtaining the correct spin with the thumb off, great! And good for her! Early in life I experimented with a 'change rise' (very bad decision on my part by the way) and it sounds like I gripped that pitch similar to what you're describing: sucking it back into my palm and removing the thumb. But I think it's a mistake to think the thumb is what causes bullet spin, regardless of the grip. It's actually the wrist that does that by turning instead of staying under the ball. Yes, the thumb would still contribute to the bullet spin but, it's only following the wrist in the sequence of the movements: Elbow snaps, then wrist, then fingers. If the wrist is moving incorrectly, all the fingers can do is turn the ball in that same direction which is bullet spin.

A girl with small hands can still learn to throw a rise using the thumb. Alterations need to happen in finger placements but I believe the thumb to be the strongest of the 5 fingers so I want it's strength to help me turn the ball, twisting it like a lightbulb, not turning a doorknob. But that doesn't mean someone can't get good spin without the thumb, however I would be surprised if there isn't a significant difference in speed between the rise and drop by using that grip. Personally I don't think there should be a significant difference in speed.
 
Sep 3, 2015
372
63
I'm very very (and even more very) aware of the hand size issue that girls (and some boys) have with a 12" ball.

The thing that SOOOOOO many people forget about me is, I wasn't always 6'3 with large hands. I was also an 11-12 year old pitcher with smaller hands trying to learn how to throw a riseball. In that time, and years that followed, I tried every grip possible. Every pitcher I saw with a great riseball, I'd ask how they held it and how they released it. And if you ask 30 different pitchers, you're likely to get about 25 different responses. But I experimented with all of them. Eventually I found the best grip for me and stuck with it. So, it's a little unfair to think or ever imply that I don't understand the trials and tribulations of learning this pitch as a kid.

I am not sure I ever said I "disagree" with the thumb off. Some grips have more advantages than others, there's no question about that. But the spin is the absolute. How that spin is generated is very much an individual choice. Taking the thumb off the ball would require even more hand on the ball, almost putting it all the way into the palm of the hand. On any pitch, the more hand you have on the ball, the slower it will be.

So, bottom line, if your kid likes her riseball grip and is obtaining the correct spin with the thumb off, great! And good for her! Early in life I experimented with a 'change rise' (very bad decision on my part by the way) and it sounds like I gripped that pitch similar to what you're describing: sucking it back into my palm and removing the thumb. But I think it's a mistake to think the thumb is what causes bullet spin, regardless of the grip. It's actually the wrist that does that by turning instead of staying under the ball. Yes, the thumb would still contribute to the bullet spin but, it's only following the wrist in the sequence of the movements: Elbow snaps, then wrist, then fingers. If the wrist is moving incorrectly, all the fingers can do is turn the ball in that same direction which is bullet spin.

A girl with small hands can still learn to throw a rise using the thumb. Alterations need to happen in finger placements but I believe the thumb to be the strongest of the 5 fingers so I want it's strength to help me turn the ball, twisting it like a lightbulb, not turning a doorknob. But that doesn't mean someone can't get good spin without the thumb, however I would be surprised if there isn't a significant difference in speed between the rise and drop by using that grip. Personally I don't think there should be a significant difference in speed.

My DD uses the thumb off grip, and it’s 2-3mph slower than the drop. But it has the correct spin.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Aug 21, 2008
2,359
113
My DD uses the thumb off grip, and it’s 2-3mph slower than the drop. But it has the correct spin.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Once again, I'm not saying people can't get correct spin with this grip.

And I'm not saying this about you sir, jsoftballcoach but... I get told all the time that someone's DD has good riseball spin only to see it in person and it's not. However, because it's not spinning forward like a drop/fastball some mistake that for good rise spin. My point is, I am amazed at how many pitching coaches don't know real riseball spin.
 
Sep 3, 2015
372
63
Once again, I'm not saying people can't get correct spin with this grip.

And I'm not saying this about you sir, jsoftballcoach but... I get told all the time that someone's DD has good riseball spin only to see it in person and it's not. However, because it's not spinning forward like a drop/fastball some mistake that for good rise spin. My point is, I am amazed at how many pitching coaches don't know real riseball spin.

It took about 2 years to get the spin correct before it was thrown in games. She learned it from Balswick and he approves.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Apr 12, 2015
792
93
But I think it's a mistake to think the thumb is what causes bullet spin, regardless of the grip. It's actually the wrist that does that by turning instead of staying under the ball. Yes, the thumb would still contribute to the bullet spin but, it's only following the wrist in the sequence of the movements: Elbow snaps, then wrist, then fingers. If the wrist is moving incorrectly, all the fingers can do is turn the ball in that same direction which is bullet spin.
Fair enough.
 
Aug 21, 2008
2,359
113
It took about 2 years to get the spin correct before it was thrown in games. She learned it from Balswick and he approves.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Balswick??? You took HIS advice/coaching? What are you.... crazy?? Balswick?????

Obviously I'm kidding. He's such a great guy, we chat every now and then. And, he was one hell of a pitcher. We played in different eras, he was before me. But we know a lot of the same people and enjoy reminiscing together about people and places we have in common. So, with all jokes aside, if he says it's good, It's probably very very good. You are lucky to have him as a coach.
 

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