Please share your input on my DD's motion(video)

[Shawn]

I have not read everything, and I will come back and read everything tomorrow.

Stop trying to push harder to create more velocity!

The only thing happening is a short impulse or push off that is happening very early in the delivery. There isn't much push left by the time the ball is around 4, she is pretty much done pushing.

You are also correct that bringing the arm back to far can create timing problem.

I will not say every pitcher has a issue when they push off to soon, but you lose the relationship with the lower body and upper body as well as the body itself.

If pushing off with the back leg/foot and shifting the weight to it is the same thing as a negative move, the early impulse that your calling pushing hard, sends some of the momentum backwards (creating a over rotated position at foot plant). After the back foot moves forward a little, it stops, and the momentum stops and then she does what Boardmember calls a pulling pitcher. The follow through is forced because of the lost momentum and she has to use more muscular force to throw the ball and follow through.

I also like what Hillhouse talked about.

You need to think of the push as more of a sprinters action. And not a just pushing hard. A sprinter is more explosive, more of a natural contraction. Telling someone to just push harder seldom creates anything that is natural.

I will read everything tomorrow.

A simple drill to stop the early push or what is basically a short impulse. Is to take a step forward with the pivot foot and then stride while creating the arm action and just throw the ball. So it's almost like doing a stepping style, if you didn't move the pivot foot forward. And I'll talk about this more tomorrow.

 

[Rick Pauly]

[While good pitchers attempt to keep the thumb pointing toward third on a rise and screw to minimize internal rotation for maximum back or side spin, the reality is they don't.........


Actually, Elite level pitchers do a pretty good job of slicing the edge of the hand into the release zone and keeping the thumb pointing at third base through release.

Pitchers with poor riseballs or a riseball with lots of curve tend to lose the slicing action early in the release phase---these pitchers probably have throw a zillion dropballs and just can't make their fingers and wrist perform a true riseball release action. Thus the reason for teaching correct riseball release action at an early stage of development.

Before anyone gets to excited, I didn't suggest young pitchers are ready to throw killer riseballs in a game----just ensure they can spin a ball backwards. It could be to late if you wait until they have mastered perfect location with their dropball.

 

[BoardMember]

While good pitchers attempt to keep the thumb pointing toward third on a rise and screw to minimize internal rotation for maximum back or side spin, the reality is they don't.........

Actually, Elite level pitchers do a pretty good job of slicing the edge of the hand into the release zone and keeping the thumb pointing at third base through release.

Rick, I might suggest you take a look at this clip frame by frame:

Hillhouse Riseball

Bill is obviously a high level pitcher. However, the fallacy that a pitcher can keep his/her thumb pointed at third thru the release as you suggest above, just isn't biomechanically possible while generating velocity.

The Glenhumeral joint just won't allow it when using proper mechanics.

If you notice, Bills arm/wrist internally rotate hard the instant of release, and his fingers actually points toward first for a moment, just as I've described earlier in this thread.

He then re-routes his hand to a palm up position during the follow thru, long after the ball is gone.........

What Bill IS doing, is attemping to minimize side spin by limiting the amount of internal rotation to the best of his ability. As all high level pitchers do.

That was my point. We TRY. But the fact is WE don't.........

The simple act of "trying" relates to a more "pure" spin......

When we throw a riseball, we acheive slightly more supination (forearm/palm to the sky) on the down swing, keeping our wrist inside the ball longer. The index (control) finger is attempting to cut under and up the front of the ball which delays the internal rotation at the fingers for a moment in time and allows release timing to flow directly at the target with backspin.

Some actually internally rotate and pronate (to palm down) the hand and fingers forward "across the bottom" of the ball, creating backspin. These pitchers usually show a "short" follow thru on the rise.

I can show you a "familiar example"........

There are many ways to achieve a riseball.

But believe me, internal rotation occurs thru release, and the thumb must rotate with the hand/forearm/upper arm/shoulder.......

Bill's clips are telling the real story.........

Unless you are taught improperly to pronate the arm/hand (palm down) by 9:00, getting the hand on top of the ball and pulling straight down and up through release............Which are completly the WRONG mechanics for fastpitch anything.......

The bottom line is, IF you are properly supinated in the down swing, the arm MUST/WILL internally rotate thru release to prevent unjury to the glenhumeral joint.

The rotational torque created by the internal rotation of the shoulder/upper-lower arm/wrist and fingers with this "natual move" is the essence of velocity in faspitch.......The key is KNOWING WHEN TO LET GO to take advantage of maximum acceleration of this rotational torque......

But that's a whole nother thread.........

Can't wait to see Sarah's DVD..........Congrats........

 

[Hillhouse]

Boardmember, the problem with the video that you're referring to is I had to 'curtail' the spin on the ball somewhat in the video. If I'm not mistaken, the ball I throw there has a slight curve to it as well. This is a result of the hand movements that you see. The reason this happened was of what occurred a few pitches before the filming with the one catcher got hit in the head by the one that I didn't 'steer away' from his face. If I had known that clip was going to be analyzed so thoroughly, I probably wouldn't put a better one on there for it. I think the main purpose of that clip was showing where I put my finger placement and how I try to spin the ball with my fingers. Too much wrist will create a bullet or sidespin, which can often curve.

Rick is right, the key is to try keeping the thumb pointed to third as long as possible. This is why the mechanics used by a lot of people make it impossible to throw a backspin riseball... they close the hips too fast or they turn their wrist instead of fingers. As a result of this, most pitchers are taught to do a substantial "lean" or "tilt" backward to angle the pitch high. I personally believe this is a lot of why there is so much controversy about the riseball.

Bill

 

[BoardMember]

Rick is right, the key is to try keeping the thumb pointed to third as long as possible. This is why the mechanics used by a lot of people make it impossible to throw a backspin riseball...

Bill, I appreciate your response, and understand the point. I believe there may be a misunderstanding regarding what I've clearly stated.

I said I also agree, as I've now said numerous times, that we do TRY to maintain the "thumb out" orientation as long as possible.

The point is, what we actually do, isn't what we think we're doing. I'd love for you to show me a clip where YOUR thumb remains pointing at third thru the release, while throwing an actual pitch at normal velocities. In otherwords, NOT a dumbed down demonstration 1/4 speed pitch that would allow for us to show a student what we are trying to accomplish.......

So lets go back to my original response. I was addressing this young ladies mechanics. They are clearly sub-optimal with regard to the proper shoulder, arm and wrist action. Her hand gets on top of the ball on the downswing, and she "pulls" straight up through release. THIS IS A TRAINED mechanic, and not naturnal.........It is absolutely stiffling her ability to generate NATURAL velocity by negating the internal rotation that occures NATURALLY when proper positions are attained throughout the sequence.

This young lady would benefit from an instructor who understands HOW to throw a softball, and HOW to teach it..........

It looks like this:

Not like this:

This riseball thing ONLY came up because I stated that internal rotation of the shoulder/arm/wrist absolutely happen, EVEN DURING THE RISEBALL.......

Rick stated he believed that many top level pitchers actually DO maintain the thumb toward third position through release.

Actually, Elite level pitchers do a pretty good job of slicing the edge of the hand into the release zone and keeping the thumb pointing at third base through release.

I simply disagreed and explained why..........One only has to watch his daughter for verification........She's got a pretty decent rise, and her hand flips completely over through release.....Go Figure......

It doesn't mean I'm not on the same page as both of you when teaching.......I infact am.....

Boardmember, the problem with the video that you're referring to is I had to 'curtail' the spin on the ball somewhat in the video. If I'm not mistaken, the ball I throw there has a slight curve to it as well. This is a result of the hand movements that you see. The reason this happened was of what occurred a few pitches before the filming with the one catcher got hit in the head by the one that I didn't 'steer away' from his face. If I had known that clip was going to be analyzed so thoroughly, I probably wouldn't put a better one on there for it. I think the main purpose of that clip was showing where I put my finger placement and how I try to spin the ball with my fingers. Too much wrist will create a bullet or sidespin, which can often curve.

Rick is right, the key is to try keeping the thumb pointed to third as long as possible. This is why the mechanics used by a lot of people make it impossible to throw a backspin riseball... they close the hips too fast or they turn their wrist instead of fingers. As a result of this, most pitchers are taught to do a substantial "lean" or "tilt" backward to angle the pitch high. I personally believe this is a lot of why there is so much controversy about the riseball.

Bill

 

[Hillhouse]

BoardMember.. is that a clip of Finch throwing a riseball?

 

[BoardMember]

BoardMember.. is that a clip of Finch throwing a riseball?

I believe it is Bill.......

 

[Hillhouse]

I thought so. Sadly it would sound like I'm bashing Finch if I was to explain why this clip is also a bad shot of what should be happening. I know she is considered a 'riseball' pitcher but based on what I see in her, she is not obtaining backspin on her ball. It's hard to tell in this clip if it's bullet spin or sidespin but, it's definetly not going backward.

Explaining why would probably be taken out of context by someone and they'd think I'm a Finch hater... (quite the opposite really!!!!!!).

Bill

 

[SBFAMILY]

I have had my dd work on the riseball with Bill and we have been at a Finch pitching clinic. Her best pitch watching her is her change up, I won't go into the reason on the riseball, for the same reason posted above. She is a great pitcher, but I will just say there are better ways to throw a riseball in my opinion.

 

[BoardMember]

I thought so. Sadly it would sound like I'm bashing Finch if I was to explain why this clip is also a bad shot of what should be happening. I know she is considered a 'riseball' pitcher but based on what I see in her, she is not obtaining backspin on her ball. It's hard to tell in this clip if it's bullet spin or sidespin but, it's definetly not going backward.

Explaining why would probably be taken out of context by someone and they'd think I'm a Finch hater... (quite the opposite really!!!!!!).

Bill

Bill, I don't believe Jen was ever really hearlded as a riseball pitcher. She was more of a "high heater-screw/Hard downer", with a really good change and drop-curve combo. Her velocity and ability to hit spots, combined with a trememdously accurate change, is her forte........

Alicia Hollowell has one of the best riseballs in the biz.......Very Pure, and throws a peel drop that the bottom falls out of........She has NO curve ball at all. She learned the backdoor change at ASU, and changed from the horseshoe change she threw her entire travel career.

Her dad told me she really didn't like the backdoor, because it floated on her alot........But that's what they wanted, so she adapted.....