Pitching Strategy against good hitters

[efastball]

You can't simply rotate the ball in your hand and get different movement. There are subtle differences in the finger pressure applied to the ball to get movement.

I love you man, but this is not correct.

When you use a machine, rather than a pitcher, there is no difference in the pitch movement based on 2-seam or 4 seam pitching.

Balls move based on the way the pitcher releases the ball (which is caused by the 'grip'). A pitching machine releases the ball the same way every time.

Anyone can pick up a ball and switch between 2SFB and 4SFB grips and see the difference.

subtle differences in the finger pressure

Based on my very limited experience, slight finger pressure changes do very little.

 

[radness]

To throw a log on the fire

Why then do pitchers change the grip
( orientation of fingers on the seams)
to create different spins?!

Fingers on the ball are part of gripping the ball and relates to applied pressure apon release...

will add
What works for one doesnt always work for another.
Then theres simply how people interpret what each thinks is happening.

Look forward to others posts on where this thread is... BIG Q, Ken, Mr.B, others?
BTW there are some really good reads on this topic in the post
titled SPIN in pitching forum!

 

[sluggers]

The 2-seam myth is, "You rotate the ball in your hand, and throw it just like a fastball. Then, the ball will move!"

But, that is not how it works. Instructional videos of "how to throw an MLB 2-seamer", always say something about the different throwing mechanics--either the arm slot, grip, off-setting the ball, wrist angle, "pulling through the seams" (AKA finger pressure), finger pressure, pronation, getting "inside" of the ball, and on and on and on.

Here are just a few:

(My favorite)









The Daniel Norris (MLB pitcher) is great... he says he throws his 2-seamer just like his 4-seamer, and then in the middle of the video, he starts talking about the importance of the release on the 2-seam. (I.e., "I throw my 2 seam exactly like the 4 seam, except release it differently." ??? OK, that clears everything up.)


(Again, I have to thank @riseball for his enlightenment about these pitches.)

 

[efastball]

The 2-seam myth is, "You rotate the ball in your hand, and throw it just like a fastball. Then, the ball will move!"

But, that is not how it works. Instructional videos of "how to throw an MLB 2-seamer", always say something about the different throwing mechanics--either the arm slot, grip, off-setting the ball, wrist angle, "pulling through the seams" (AKA finger pressure), finger pressure, pronation, getting "inside" of the ball, and on and on and on.

Of course you can do all the things you mention and (maybe) make a given pitch behave slightly differently.

But that has nothing whatsoever to do with your premise that simply rotating the ball doesn't make a 2SFB and a 4SFB move differently. That's exactly how it works.

What you are saying is provably incorrect. Take a ball and rotate the ball in your hand (from 2SFB to 4SFB) and see what happens. Everyone on this board can throw a few balls and prove what you're saying is not correct.

A 2SFB will always sink more, and tail away from your body.

Further 'pulling through the seams' is not what they mean when they are talking about 'finger pressure'.

 

[sluggers]

What you are saying is provably incorrect. Take a ball and rotate the ball in your hand (from 2SFB to 4SFB) and see what happens. Everyone on this board can throw a few balls and prove what you're saying is not correct.

By the by, this is a really good discussion.

My DD was a pitcher. She went to the best PC in Chicagoland. I caught her from age 11 to age 18 years in the backyard. I caught thousands and thousands of pitches. We tried every thing you can imagine to get more speed and more movement, including different grips. Two seam fastballs had no more movement than her four seam.

My DD pitched D1, and is now a varsity softball coach. She pitches BP to her team 4 or 5 times a week during the season. I just asked her. She said she has, of course, tried 2-seam and 4-seam grips...just because when you pitch that much you end up trying different things. She says if the release for the two pitches is the same, there is no difference in movement.

She can make the ball move left or right. She uses finger pressure and a slightly different release to get the ball to move.

 

[efastball]

By the by, this is a really good discussion.

Agree.

My son had the worst pitching coach in the area - me. I learned from my 4 girls hitting coaches, that most instructions/drills were backwards or destructive. So, I bought a radar gun, and taught myself and son starting abt age 11 (also in our back yard). We tried things, and if they were faster, we kept doing them. Most baseball pitching instruction is bunk. He learned every grip from the start. He was throwing 90 at 140 lbs. I should have learned more about protein sooner.

He was a D1 pitcher, then after TJ was a D2 pitcher.

 

[Bench Coach Dad]

for 12 U ball, What should I have my pitchers do when the other teams' batters are hitting my their fastballs other than throw a faster fastball?! LOL
My pitchers cannot throw anything but fastballs at this time, we are working on change ups etc.
Does it make sense for my pitchers to throw slower to the batters like an Arc pitch? I'm wondering if the other teams' batters are using the speed of our fastballs to their advantage....

A good, well spun and well placed fastball is arguably the best pitch in the game. Location and pitch quality (pitch calling) is the key. While your pitchers are learning the change-up a quick solution is to teach them the two-seam fastball and mix it in your pitch calling with the traditional four-seam they are most likely throwing. The two-seam delivered correctly will show some late movement. Spinning the ball is really important.

 

[BigSkyHi]

Want to dominate?

 

[Tide_will_Roll]

for 12 U ball, What should I have my pitchers do when the other teams' batters are hitting my their fastballs other than throw a faster fastball?! LOL
My pitchers cannot throw anything but fastballs at this time, we are working on change ups etc.
Does it make sense for my pitchers to throw slower to the batters like an Arc pitch? I'm wondering if the other teams' batters are using the speed of our fastballs to their advantage....

Disclaimer: I am not a pitching coach, merely the dad of a 12U pitcher.

On the advice of my DD's pitching coach, who was a pretty good D1 pitcher and a self proclaimed "physics nerd" I would stay away from your girls using a flip change.

From what I was told, the way the ball spins with the flip change if the batter gets good wood (composite?) on it, their chances of murdering it is better. The rotation spins back the opposite way and the ball will really carry.

DD's pitching coach teaches a circle change, a "shove change up" and something I don't even know the name of depending on what her students seem most physically comfortable with/capable of throwing best.

 

[radness]

Another tip on the 'flip change'~

Flip change is also more noticable to hitters.The Flip of the pitchers hand gives it away. So its easier for the hitters to see it coming.

Better to have a change up that blends in for deception!