Pitcher backswing question.

Welcome to Discuss Fastpitch

Your FREE Account is waiting to the Best Softball Community on the Web.

Aug 20, 2017
1,474
113
I think it gives hitters something else to think about. Bill is correct in saying that the load occurs when the pitcher moves forward. I’ve played games against pitchers with good velocity that would vary their load times each pitch. Almost like a baseball pitcher in the stretch varying the knee lift with a slide step. They would rock back and hold for 1,2,3 and even 4 second counts. Then explode forward. It messed my hitters up lol. I told them to start calling time out if she holds more than two seconds. All JMO!
 

BigSkyHi

All I know is I don't know
Jan 13, 2020
1,385
113
Yeah, it cracked me up because the still shot of the video was Monica Abbot, who isn't Japanese (I know she plays there or did) and she has the biggest backswing of all time.

Yes, the other pitcher, on the white team, is Japanese and does not have a traditional backswing. The ball does pop out of the glove a bit, but it's nothing like Abbot.
Had to see the end of the game. Monica got beat 2-1
 
Aug 21, 2008
2,359
113
I think it gives hitters something else to think about. Bill is correct in saying that the load occurs when the pitcher moves forward. I’ve played games against pitchers with good velocity that would vary their load times each pitch. Almost like a baseball pitcher in the stretch varying the knee lift with a slide step. They would rock back and hold for 1,2,3 and even 4 second counts. Then explode forward. It messed my hitters up lol. I told them to start calling time out if she holds more than two seconds. All JMO!

I can guarantee you that the hitters are not thinking about her wind up. They're facing a tall lefty with a 70mph riseball, they aren't concerned with the dance like moves she does before the push forward. The higher the level of play, the less hitters are intimidated or fooled by a pitcher's wind up. They are focused on the delivery. Plus, the higher the level of play, the less likely the pitcher is going to vary the wind up like Cornbread described. A pitcher needs to stay in a rhythm, changing things every pitch breaks that rhythm. This is not something you see the best pitchers in the world doing. Its easy to think that you can throw a hitter off by changing your tempo, altering your wind up, etc. but this is also an easy way for a pitcher to lose his/her groove.

Personally, I used to struggle sometimes after doing an intentional walk. Throwing the 4 riseballs out of the zone was the easy part for the walk but now I just took myself out of my own rhythm and need to find it immediately for the next hitter. That is more challenging that you might think.

Bill
 
Oct 26, 2019
1,375
113
@Hillhouse - Its funny you mention the intentional walk messing up a pitcher. I can’t tell you how many times coaching baseball I would see the coach make a pitching change late in a tight ball game and have the pitcher who just entered the game Intentionally walk the batter to an open base. What a great way to get ready to throw strikes. Come into a tight game late and proceed to throw 4 balls in a row. Why not let the guy who you took out walk the batter - he was probably doing that anyway and that’s why he’s coming out!
 
May 15, 2008
1,913
113
Cape Cod Mass.
A while ago I was ranting about the 'sprinter start' and how it sets girls up for coming off the rubber too low and not getting into good posture and tilt at release. While studying slo-mo video of sprinters taking off from the blocks I noticed something. All sprinters have a 'backswing' when they take off. If the right foot is their drive foot they drop their right arm back as they launch. In essence they drive off the blocks with one arm falling back and the other going forward. Check out the video.

 
Aug 21, 2008
2,359
113
A while ago I was ranting about the 'sprinter start' and how it sets girls up for coming off the rubber too low and not getting into good posture and tilt at release. While studying slo-mo video of sprinters taking off from the blocks I noticed something. All sprinters have a 'backswing' when they take off. If the right foot is their drive foot they drop their right arm back as they launch. In essence they drive off the blocks with one arm falling back and the other going forward. Check out the video.




With all due respect, I'm not sure I see the point. Anyone who jumps (upward or broad jump style) has negative movement with their arms first, which generates more momentum. They swing their arms backward then thrust them in the direction they're trying to jump. That part has never been in dispute. Many hitters are taught to do a negative movement with the hands during the load too, which is said to help generate power going forward. The point I've repeatedly tried to make is, the way the majority of girls do their "backswing" isn't doing for them what they think it is. The majority face 3 or 4 major problems doing tihs:

First: 99% that do the backswing, lock their elbow. Most of those never unlock the elbow on the downswing. In many cases, this has to do with the way they warm up (doing wrist flips, ball to 2nd base drills, etc). Once they lock their elbow in the backswing, most have muscle memory from their "Drills" to keep it locked.

Second: EVERYONE that does the backswing shows the hitter the ball and, more importantly, the grip on the ball. If you want your catcher to hide the signals to the pitcher, then the pitcher should also do their part in hiding the pitch too. Most doing the backswing give the hitters at least 2 shots to see the ball and what pitch is coming.

Third: Most important, when pitchers do a backswing, they're only using ONE arm for the swing. The glove hand stops at the waist and doesn't move from that point. Therefore, the glove hand doesn't help with the push forward. Yet, as pointed out above, when people run they swing their arms (plural, not arm singular). When they jump upward or forward, they swing BOTH arms. So why when someone is trying to get the most of their legs in pitching with a thrust off the rubber do they only want 1 arm swinging forward? The entire glove side of the body isn't being used, which is a huge waste.

Forth: just about every pitcher you see that has a dramatic "swim" with the glove hand does so because the hands separate too early. The longer the ball stays in the glove as it's being pushed towards the catcher in the pitch, the less freedom the glove has to go swimming. Almost nobody's glove stays directly on top of the leg, everyone's falls behind somewhat. But the idea is to limit how far it goes. And a backswing gives the glove hand a lot of time to go swimming. But keeping the hands together will not only keep the elbow from locking, will conceal the ball and grip, will help get both halves of the body pushing forward but it will help eliminate swimming.

Bill
 
May 15, 2008
1,913
113
Cape Cod Mass.
My point is simple and addressed the sprinter start and not the backswing per se. I don't see how a coach can advocate both the sprinters start and coming out of the glove because sprinters have a backswing.
 
Sep 29, 2014
2,421
113
With all due respect, I'm not sure I see the point. Anyone who jumps (upward or broad jump style) has negative movement with their arms first, which generates more momentum. They swing their arms backward then thrust them in the direction they're trying to jump. That part has never been in dispute. Many hitters are taught to do a negative movement with the hands during the load too, which is said to help generate power going forward. The point I've repeatedly tried to make is, the way the majority of girls do their "backswing" isn't doing for them what they think it is. The majority face 3 or 4 major problems doing tihs:

First: 99% that do the backswing, lock their elbow. Most of those never unlock the elbow on the downswing. In many cases, this has to do with the way they warm up (doing wrist flips, ball to 2nd base drills, etc). Once they lock their elbow in the backswing, most have muscle memory from their "Drills" to keep it locked.

Second: EVERYONE that does the backswing shows the hitter the ball and, more importantly, the grip on the ball. If you want your catcher to hide the signals to the pitcher, then the pitcher should also do their part in hiding the pitch too. Most doing the backswing give the hitters at least 2 shots to see the ball and what pitch is coming.

Third: Most important, when pitchers do a backswing, they're only using ONE arm for the swing. The glove hand stops at the waist and doesn't move from that point. Therefore, the glove hand doesn't help with the push forward. Yet, as pointed out above, when people run they swing their arms (plural, not arm singular). When they jump upward or forward, they swing BOTH arms. So why when someone is trying to get the most of their legs in pitching with a thrust off the rubber do they only want 1 arm swinging forward? The entire glove side of the body isn't being used, which is a huge waste.

Forth: just about every pitcher you see that has a dramatic "swim" with the glove hand does so because the hands separate too early. The longer the ball stays in the glove as it's being pushed towards the catcher in the pitch, the less freedom the glove has to go swimming. Almost nobody's glove stays directly on top of the leg, everyone's falls behind somewhat. But the idea is to limit how far it goes. And a backswing gives the glove hand a lot of time to go swimming. But keeping the hands together will not only keep the elbow from locking, will conceal the ball and grip, will help get both halves of the body pushing forward but it will help eliminate swimming.

Bill
Bill has forgot more about pitching than I'll ever know and it is pointless to rehash but suffice it to say observation of the best female pitchers in the game simply doesn't bare this out...could they all be doing it wrong...i suppose (although maybe Bill would argue not wrong but just could be "better")

1) Yes the elbow locks during the back swing but NO elite pitcher leaves it locked...it's just a mechanical muscle memory thing to learn like anything else when the time comes unlock your elbow simple as that.
2) I guess female hitters just aren't as smart or as good as the males that can pick up pitches (unless they rely on Walton to yell at them from the third base box half a second before they need to react). Almost all female pitcher have a back swing and I'm just not seeing a bunch of 10-8 games against elite pitchers because they keep showing the ball and hitters know what's coming
3) This is true...
4) Usually my first check is at three o'clock where I would expect to see BOTH hands fully extended out in front of the pitcher separated but close almost like they could clap together, again just teaching and expecting good technique.

Again if I was teaching a 8 yr old from scratch might I just start with no back swing maybe...is it worth messing with the timing of a 16 year old good pitcher with solid mechanics...will it make her great? probably not... Finally realize my advise is simply an observation an not decades of experience like Bill so take it worth a grain of salt.
 
Aug 21, 2008
2,359
113
Bill has forgot more about pitching than I'll ever know and it is pointless to rehash but suffice it to say observation of the best female pitchers in the game simply doesn't bare this out...could they all be doing it wrong...i suppose (although maybe Bill would argue not wrong but just could be "better")

1) Yes the elbow locks during the back swing but NO elite pitcher leaves it locked...it's just a mechanical muscle memory thing to learn like anything else when the time comes unlock your elbow simple as that.
2) I guess female hitters just aren't as smart or as good as the males that can pick up pitches (unless they rely on Walton to yell at them from the third base box half a second before they need to react). Almost all female pitcher have a back swing and I'm just not seeing a bunch of 10-8 games against elite pitchers because they keep showing the ball and hitters know what's coming
3) This is true...
4) Usually my first check is at three o'clock where I would expect to see BOTH hands fully extended out in front of the pitcher separated but close almost like they could clap together, again just teaching and expecting good technique.

Again if I was teaching a 8 yr old from scratch might I just start with no back swing maybe...is it worth messing with the timing of a 16 year old good pitcher with solid mechanics...will it make her great? probably not... Finally realize my advise is simply an observation an not decades of experience like Bill so take it worth a grain of salt.

1. You're right, the elites don't leave the elbow locked. The problem is, 99% of the young pitchers DO leave it locked. MOST of the elites were also initially taught H/E mechanics too!! But they either figured it out on their own or someone showed them that what they're doing isn't going to work long term, and they made the switch. You also don't see "elite" pitchers doing "wrist flips" and other non-sense which leads to the muscle memory of locking the elbow. So perhaps along the way of learning to unlock their elbows they also learned what is causing them to do it in the first place? Just a theory.

2. More and more hitters are learning the art of reading pitchers. I guarantee it's worked on the the National team, and several of the top college programs. I worked on it with 2 mid-major teams and it was something those girls had never done before, and it helped them a lot. One girl I worked with since she was 10 years old, she would take batting practice off me every week for 30 minutes, I taught her several ways to read a pitcher from the obvious to the not-so-obvious, she went on to have a pretty good career at Oregon. So as THIS generation of players that's learning how to pick pitchers starts teaching the NEXT generation, and so on.. it won't be long until it's mainstream in the women's game too.

3.

4. I have yet to see a girl with a glove swim have good technique with the arms going forward as you mentioned. In fact, I'd say one of the reasons they have poor technique is because the arms are not going forward.

I'll go on the record and say this: to do a backswing because everyone else is doing may not be the best reason. I understand your point, if it works for others why won't it work for us? There's truth in that. But, as a kid, I have pitched both ways, with a backswing and without. The backswing does NOT help the pitching motion, and it does leave potential for it to HURT the pitching motion. So if something isn't helping me and I never know when I'm going to run into a team or a hitter than can read me like a book, then why am I doing this backswing? MOST girls believe it gives them more power, when it actually doesn't. Power comes from the legs, and you can't get the most power if you're only using 1 single arm for momentum forward.

Bill
 

Members online

No members online now.

Forum statistics

Threads
42,830
Messages
679,481
Members
21,445
Latest member
Bmac81802
Top