Pitch Calling

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Oct 1, 2014
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Sure...pitch calling in TB retards the development of pitchers.

Why? As pointed out numerous times, the most important factors for a young pitcher's success is control. So, developing young pitchers should focus on control.

In softball, "control" means being able to (a) find the umpire's strike zone and (b) pitch on the edge's of the umpire's strike zone. Control is more difficult because the strike zone floats--it changes from batter to batter, and umpire to umpire.

Young pitchers should be allowed to go to the circle and work simply on control and changing speeds.

Someone will say, "kids need to work on throwing breaking pitches during games". Reality check: Few TB pitchers have breaking pitches. At 14U TB A, about 1 in 20 pitchers have movement. At a 14U TB - B tournaments, no pitcher has a breaking pitch.

So, drop the charade. Just let the kid pitch and actually experience playing the pitching game.


To a large extent, yes. They are older and more mature physically and mentally.



Yes...because charts at that level have meaningful information. The data actually means something.

1) The pitchers can consistently throw the called pitch to the called location.
2) The pitchers face the same batters over and over again.
Thanks for the reply but I sincerely disagree with much of it. You seem to skip TB years 16 & 18? Is that because it doesn't fit neatly into your argument? And, I'd say that most decent 14yo pitchers are already competing on older aged teams as well. You say they should simply be allowed to go into the circle and work on control and speed.....that's what they do all year long in practice isn't it? Am I really the only one who believes that some pitchers in TB actually pitch fairly well and can somewhat be relied on to to hit their spots or change their speeds or spins?

Now, don't get me completely wrong...I've seen a lot of ridiculous pitch calling over the years with pitchers who couldn't make an adjustment to speed, spot and spin if their lives depended on it. Not to mention the logic of some coaches calling the pitches. But not everyone is that bad. And, to throw out another controversial (to some) factor, I'm in the camp that working with a competent catcher on calling a game is a big positive for the overall sport.

If I understand your position correctly a pitcher should simply be allowed to go into a game and throw whatever they want, decided on solely by themselves and use it completely as practice to work on control? Should they be allowed to seek feedback from the catcher, coach or umpire as to where they might be missing the zone as it "floats" (which it surely does)? Should they not be a part of the rest of the team out there that day and take "suggestions as to the batters stance, swing, speed, previous tendencies, etc...or is that not recognizable to some still only playing TB?

Of course a pitcher that sticks with it and works on their craft gets better as they mature (mentally & physically) and of course the resources available to most college teams to track pitch data and hitting data is better than little Suzie's Gold Elite Rainbow Unicorn Platinum 10U All Star team but again, they need to start developing and understanding the game before they get to the college level. Being coached and told to throw a certain pitch (assuming they actually have worked on that particular pitch) during a game is a part of that development.

Not sure I'm completely and accurately making my point but there you go.
 
Sep 29, 2014
2,421
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Thanks for the reply but I sincerely disagree with much of it. You seem to skip TB years 16 & 18? Is that because it doesn't fit neatly into your argument? And, I'd say that most decent 14yo pitchers are already competing on older aged teams as well. You say they should simply be allowed to go into the circle and work on control and speed.....that's what they do all year long in practice isn't it? Am I really the only one who believes that some pitchers in TB actually pitch fairly well and can somewhat be relied on to to hit their spots or change their speeds or spins?

Now, don't get me completely wrong...I've seen a lot of ridiculous pitch calling over the years with pitchers who couldn't make an adjustment to speed, spot and spin if their lives depended on it. Not to mention the logic of some coaches calling the pitches. But not everyone is that bad. And, to throw out another controversial (to some) factor, I'm in the camp that working with a competent catcher on calling a game is a big positive for the overall sport.

If I understand your position correctly a pitcher should simply be allowed to go into a game and throw whatever they want, decided on solely by themselves and use it completely as practice to work on control? Should they be allowed to seek feedback from the catcher, coach or umpire as to where they might be missing the zone as it "floats" (which it surely does)? Should they not be a part of the rest of the team out there that day and take "suggestions as to the batters stance, swing, speed, previous tendencies, etc...or is that not recognizable to some still only playing TB?

Of course a pitcher that sticks with it and works on their craft gets better as they mature (mentally & physically) and of course the resources available to most college teams to track pitch data and hitting data is better than little Suzie's Gold Elite Rainbow Unicorn Platinum 10U All Star team but again, they need to start developing and understanding the game before they get to the college level. Being coached and told to throw a certain pitch (assuming they actually have worked on that particular pitch) during a game is a part of that development.

Not sure I'm completely and accurately making my point but there you go.
I think @sluggers and some of us other are trying to point out that "some" is a lot smaller number than most people think.

As a coach who is supposed to call pitches don't let any pitching coach, parent or pitcher tell you what they can or can't do in the circle. You have to come up with the answer yourself. Go to your pitcher and say I don't care what pitch you throw throw me 10 pitches that are 18 to 30 inches off the ground between the batters box line and outer six inches of the plate, they can either do it or they can't, now do the same thing inside and high cover all four quadrant....after those forty pitches you should know whether or not you are wasting your time....again I use a rough benchmark of about 70-75%. In my experience I had one at 12U (she was 13 yr old) that could do this as well as throw a quality change up. Your numbers will increase as you get to older girls but I would still try the same test with every new pitcher before I started calling pitches, so I knew where I stood
 
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Oct 4, 2018
4,611
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... and some days are better than others. With younger girls, some days they have it and some they don't.

Of course with younger girls, you then have to take into account their mental toughness. I've called pitches for girls who couldn't hit spots simply because their confidence would be shot if they witnessed me calling pitches for Sally last game but not for them this game.
 
May 17, 2012
2,804
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"suggestions as to the batters stance, swing, speed, previous tendencies, etc...or is that not recognizable to some still only playing TB?"

Again this is nonsense.

If you think pitch calling is a skill can you quantify it? How much better are you than grandma sitting in the stand? Can we attach some metrics to it?

How much better are you than random chance?

Should we attach some sort of pitch calling statistic to coaches? If so why haven't we done it?
 
May 17, 2012
2,804
113
It's not a skill.

It's something some people are good at and some are bad at. It's something that you can get better at with practice and hard work.

Who is good at it? Who is not? Do you have names and statistics? How much better is the group vs the roll of a dice?
 
Sep 29, 2014
2,421
113
Who is good at it? Who is not? Do you have names and statistics? How much better is the group vs the roll of a dice?
The biggest issue beside a pitcher actually being able to pitch what you call, is your sample size. The only reason this works in the MLB is because pitchers can hit their spot and they have TONS of data that isn't available in any other organization now they go over that data before each game with the pitcher and catcher and come up with a game plan based on the data, even if you have seen the same team a couple times it's not the same you might do better than going in cold but again sample size matters.
 
Sep 29, 2014
2,421
113
... and some days are better than others. With younger girls, some days they have it and some they don't.

Of course with younger girls, you then have to take into account their mental toughness. I've called pitches for girls who couldn't hit spots simply because their confidence would be shot if they witnessed me calling pitches for Sally last game but not for them this game.
I'll grant you that but if the stats look like 30% that's not an off day thats lack of control. If you can do better than 50% but not at 75% then maybe we can start talking about the off day.
 
Jun 8, 2016
16,118
113
A more accurate title for this thread would be "Pitch calling from the dugout" because if nobody is calling a pitch then the catcher/umpire is going to end up with a lot of bruises... :LOL:
 
Oct 1, 2014
2,219
113
USA
Again this is nonsense.

If you think pitch calling is a skill can you quantify it? How much better are you than grandma sitting in the stand? Can we attach some metrics to it?

How much better are you than random chance?

Should we attach some sort of pitch calling statistic to coaches? If so why haven't we done it?

pfffftt... Again - some days everything sucks and some days you shine. I believe that the goal of everyone involved is to get better, to be better than "random chance" with 50/50 odds. If paying attention to other factors in a game doesn't add any alpha to your performance then sure, give it up. Let the kids go play and we'll ll have a beer in the parking lot....who cares?

So, let me ask you a question... If pitch calling is no better than random chance and you don't think anyone can call a game any better than anyone else how does the pitcher themselves, when left to their own devices decide what to throw? Is that just randomly generated and decided upon in their own mind based on strictly how they feel about themselves that day? C'mon now, I know you like to argue but what are you trying to say? That everyone is full of BS and should give up managing the game? That pitchers across the board can't ever throw a pitch when it is called by someone else? Or is Grandma in the stands a ringer and she just won big at the casino? I don't understand your position on this, why practice?
 

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