Passed Ball or Wild Pitch?

[MNDad]

This statement ^^^ doesn't align with the text of the rules you posted. It would seem that we need a clarification on what "ordinary effort" means for a catcher in regards to the action of blocking (dropping to your knees and using your body to stop the ball).

Like a competent F3 being able to pick bounced throws, blocking is expected skill for a competent catcher. However, like F3, if the ball gets through, the mistake should not get credited to the receiving end of the equation.

How so? Neither state “block”, but that’s how I’d interpret “handle” or “catch or stop and control”. I don’t like either definition, but that’s what it says.

Am I misunderstanding what you’re saying?

 

[texasheat]

Its VERY different if you take time to read them. You'll also see that NONE are the same as the MLB definition you provided.

USSSA and USA/ASA if a catcher doesn't catch or block the ball with ordinary effort its a wild pitch.

NCAA any pitch that hits the dirt is wild. Not a judgement call on ordinary effort if that's the case.

NFHS and PGF any ball hitting the ground in front of the plate is automatically wild. If it hits the ground right in front of the catcher, ordinary effort comes back into play.

Where does it say that a ball that hits the dirt before getting to the catcher is not scored as a wild pitch?

 

[MNDad]

Where does it say that a ball that hits the dirt before getting to the catcher is not scored as a wild pitch?

HS rules only specify any pitch landing in front of the plate is wild. USA and USSSA don’t mention anything about hitting the dirt. NCAA is the only one that states explicitly any pitch in the dirt is wild.

 

[TexAg1998]

It would seem that we need a clarification on what "ordinary effort" means for a catcher in regards to the action of blocking (dropping to your knees and using your body to stop the ball

I stated earlier in this thread that blocking is NOT ordinary effort. Is it expected of a good catcher? Absolutely. Will I eat my DD’s tail if she should have blocked one and didn’t because she was lazy? You bet I will. Blocking is one of the fundamentals of catching, but fundamentals are hard.

In order for one to be successful at this sport, one must master the fundamentals. But fundamentals are hard. Basics are easy. Basics are throwing, running, catching the ball in the pocket of the glove, fielding ground balls with your butt down and glove out front, making contact at the plate, receiving pitches from the pitcher that are relatively near the strike zone. They can be accomplished with ordinary effort. Fundamentals involve things like laying out for balls in the gaps, throwing accurately on the run, turning double plays, hitting home runs, and blocking pitches in the dirt. They’re expected, they need to be practiced regularly, and they’re not ordinary effort. Maybe look at it this way: if you can stop playing softball for a year and still be able to do it, it’s a basic. If you lose the ability to do it well without regular practice, it’s a fundamental.

If you ask any catcher, past or present, if it takes ordinary effort or extraordinary effort to block a pitch in the dirt, she will tell you that it’s NOT a basic.


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[texasheat]

HS rules only specify any pitch landing in front of the plate is wild. USA and USSSA don’t mention anything about hitting the dirt. NCAA is the only one that states explicitly any pitch in the dirt is wild.

No that wasn't my question.

Furthermore. are you saying that a pitch that hits the dirt before reaching the catcher and gets by the catcher is a passed ball? Is that your contention?

 

[MNDad]

I stated earlier in this thread that blocking is NOT ordinary effort. Is it expected of a good catcher? Absolutely. Will I eat my DD’s tail if she should have blocked one and didn’t because she was lazy? You bet I will. Blocking is one of the fundamentals of catching, but fundamentals are hard.

In order for one to be successful at this sport, one must master the fundamentals. But fundamentals are hard. Basics are easy. Basics are throwing, running, catching the ball in the pocket of the glove, fielding ground balls with your butt down and glove out front, making contact at the plate, receiving pitches from the pitcher that are relatively near the strike zone. They can be accomplished with ordinary effort. Fundamentals involve things like laying out for balls in the gaps, throwing accurately on the run, turning double plays, hitting home runs, and blocking pitches in the dirt. They’re expected, they need to be practiced regularly, and they’re not ordinary effort. Maybe look at it this way: if you can stop playing softball for a year and still be able to do it, it’s a basic. If you lose the ability to do it well without regular practice, it’s a fundamental.

If you ask any catcher, past or present, if it takes ordinary effort or extraordinary effort to block a pitch in the dirt, she will tell you that it’s NOT a basic.


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Is there catching terminology where stopping or controlling the ball is different from blocking it?

I don’t like the USA definition, but that’s what it says.

No that wasn't my question.

Furthermore. are you saying that a pitch that hits the dirt before reaching the catcher and gets by the catcher is a passed ball? Is that your contention?

Possibly. Depends on the sanctioning body and score keepers judgement of ordinary effort.

 

[TexAg1998]

Is there catching terminology where stopping or controlling the ball is different from blocking it?

I don’t know that there is, was, or ever will be any consistent “definition” between stopping/controlling the ball and blocking the ball. What I know is that I’ve seen catchers who have the ability to pick one out of the dirt without having to block and get away with it, and I’ve seen catchers try that and fail miserably. I’ve seen catchers who can block like they’re shooting an instructional video for it, and I’ve seen catchers who couldn’t block a twitter user with both hands and a instruction manual.

I’ve heard comparisons between catchers blocking and 1B picking a ball out of the dirt on a low throw as being the same, and I disagree. I firmly believe that the only way you can draw an equal comparison between those two positions is if they are both picking it out of the dirt or if they are both blocking. Ever seen a 1B drop to her knees and block a low throw? Me neither, but I bet if you did it would be considered to be way more than ordinary effort. Forget about the fact that catchers are wearing protective gear - the simple ACT of blocking is more than ordinary effort. If anyone else on the field was wearing the gear and dropped to her knees to block a ball on the ground (instead of just fielding it), it would be EXTRAordinary effort, so why not for a catcher?

Imagine putting your shortstop in gear and requiring her to drop to her knees and block a ball instead of fielding it and then make a strong throw to 1st to get the runner. You would never think of putting your shortstop at such a disadvantage because of the extra effort required of her to do that successfully, but yet we expect that of our catchers every time there is a pitch in the dirt with a runner on 1st. How would it be ordinary effort for a catcher, but not for a shortstop?


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[FP26]

I’ve heard comparisons between catchers blocking and 1B picking a ball out of the dirt on a low throw as being the same,

If you are referring to my post, that is not what I said. I drew the comparison simply in the way the play is scored. If there is a wild throw from SS or 3B, in many cases it is going to go down as an error. In some cases, a good 1B can save that error from being registered. Likewise, a good catcher, in some cases, can save a WP from being registered.

 

[TexAg1998]

If you are referring to my post, that is not what I said. I drew the comparison simply in the way the play is scored. If there is a wild throw from SS or 3B, in many cases it is going to go down as an error. In some cases, a good 1B can save that error from being registered. Likewise, a good catcher, in some cases, can save a WP from being registered.

Not you specifically. Totally get what you’re saying in terms of scoring the play. There have been loads of people who have drawn this comparison to discuss the amount of effort required. Mainly on other threads, and always when the topic of wild pitches comes up.


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[Eric F]

I don’t know that there is, was, or ever will be any consistent “definition” between stopping/controlling the ball and blocking the ball. What I know is that I’ve seen catchers who have the ability to pick one out of the dirt without having to block and get away with it, and I’ve seen catchers try that and fail miserably. I’ve seen catchers who can block like they’re shooting an instructional video for it, and I’ve seen catchers who couldn’t block a twitter user with both hands and a instruction manual.

I’ve heard comparisons between catchers blocking and 1B picking a ball out of the dirt on a low throw as being the same, and I disagree. I firmly believe that the only way you can draw an equal comparison between those two positions is if they are both picking it out of the dirt or if they are both blocking. Ever seen a 1B drop to her knees and block a low throw? Me neither, but I bet if you did it would be considered to be way more than ordinary effort. Forget about the fact that catchers are wearing protective gear - the simple ACT of blocking is more than ordinary effort. If anyone else on the field was wearing the gear and dropped to her knees to block a ball on the ground (instead of just fielding it), it would be EXTRAordinary effort, so why not for a catcher?

Imagine putting your shortstop in gear and requiring her to drop to her knees and block a ball instead of fielding it and then make a strong throw to 1st to get the runner. You would never think of putting your shortstop at such a disadvantage because of the extra effort required of her to do that successfully, but yet we expect that of our catchers every time there is a pitch in the dirt with a runner on 1st. How would it be ordinary effort for a catcher, but not for a shortstop?


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My DD tends to pick more than block (knee drop), and has become pretty good at it. My DD got to work with Janelle Lindvall for a while, and Janelle is a believer in the value of picking to give the catcher a better chance to throw out a runner.

My comparison to a F3 picking is that if F3 misses the pick, the error goes to the thrower, not F3, even though picking is an expected skill for a competent F3. Likewise with a catcher blocking, which is - as you noted - a much more difficult skill to execute.