OTF HR. Coach hugs baserunner

[RIZZARIJOE]

Ok umps and rules people. This question came up in a thread no UMP has read and it’s gotten almost heated.

On an OTF home run. Batter/runner is rounding third and the coach gives her a hug. Is the batter out?

If yes does this hug count as assisting the runner?

I would agree with all the fellow umps on this thread. Any umpire that would call the runner out for assistance by a coach should turn in his facemask and find another avocation! It does not matter whether the ball is live or dead. On any awarded bases, the runner is still obligated to complete her baserunning duties. The rule is a little bit quirky because, on one hand, you cannot pass another baserunner, but on the other hand, rule 8 does allow for assistance from a team member(but not a coach). Fellow umpires, help me out here. Let say that the baserunner twists her ankles severely running from 1st to 2nd base and cannot continue without assistance. The ball becomes dead from either a home run or thrown out of the playing area. A girl from the bench comes out to physically assist her to the awarded base or bases. What call do you guys have?

 

[Comp]

I believe the rule says she can be assisted by another runner. The coach also has the option of entering a sub for her to complete the base running requirements.

 

[grmerrill]

Since it is my post that started this, maybe those that have provided information could answer this question. What is the High School rule book definition of "assistance"?

The physical part is easy..... but what can and can't a coach do when they touch a player? Especially when it is more than a high five or a passing touch?

We couldn't find a definition, and we tried, so it comes down to the opinion of the umpire as to what the act of "assistance" would be. And as much as opinions have been stated here and there should be a consensus of what should constitute a rule violation, what hard definition of assistance do you have to make the judgement? We had the opinion carry the ruling the other direction as as far as my understanding goes, this is not a ruling that could be appealed. So we ended up with not only an out but if I remember correctly, since this was last year, it ended the inning.

It was so out of the ordinary that no one but the opposing coach realized what happened and the umpire was asked to make a decisions and he did. It was dumb on the coaches part and it may have been dumb on the umpires part, with it being an unknown what he saw, but it is even dumber to not learn that it is best to not muddy the water and make it someone elses decision. I have never seen a college coach do anything more than a hand slap for a runner, maybe someone could find video of one of them hugging a runner to show it shouldn't be a violation. I don't think you will find it.

 

[CHSUmp97]

Since it is my post that started this, maybe those that have provided information could answer this question. What is the High School rule book definition of "assistance"?

The physical part is easy..... but what can and can't a coach do when they touch a player? Especially when it is more than a high five or a passing touch?

We couldn't find a definition, and we tried, so it comes down to the opinion of the umpire as to what the act of "assistance" would be. And as much as opinions have been stated here and there should be a consensus of what should constitute a rule violation, what hard definition of assistance do you have to make the judgement? We had the opinion carry the ruling the other direction as as far as my understanding goes, this is not a ruling that could be appealed. So we ended up with not only an out but if I remember correctly, since this was last year, it ended the inning.

It was so out of the ordinary that no one but the opposing coach realized what happened and the umpire was asked to make a decisions and he did. It was dumb on the coaches part and it may have been dumb on the umpires part, with it being an unknown what he saw, but it is even dumber to not learn that it is best to not muddy the water and make it someone elses decision. I have never seen a college coach do anything more than a hand slap for a runner, maybe someone could find video of one of them hugging a runner to show it shouldn't be a violation. I don't think you will find it.

Why do you need a rule book definition of assistance? It should be obvious what it means. It means a base coach can not touch a runner to help her advance or return while running the bases. The ball could be live or dead.

Assistance includes:
- grabbing a runner to stop her or to get her to return to a base
- pushing a runner to advance to a base
- intentionally moving into the runner’s path so that the runner runs into the coach to prevent her from advancing
- slapping the runner on the back on a tag-up to let her know that a fly ball was touched by a fielder
- picking her up is she falls while running the bases

Now, on the hug, that’s not assisting unless you see something else that happens. Let’s say the runner rounds but misses third. The base coach grabs the runner to hug her, and while hugging she whispers something in the runner’s ear, and when they end the embrace, the runner goes back and touches third. That is assistance. But if it’s just a hug and then the runner keeps on going, there was no assistance there.

It should be fairly straightforward to recognize, folks. Don’t make this any harder to figure out.


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[grmerrill]

Why do you need a rule book definition of assistance? It should be obvious what it means. It means a base coach can not touch a runner to help her advance or return while running the bases. The ball could be live or dead.

Assistance includes:
- grabbing a runner to stop her or to get her to return to a base
- pushing a runner to advance to a base
- intentionally moving into the runner’s path so that the runner runs into the coach to prevent her from advancing
- slapping the runner on the back on a tag-up to let her know that a fly ball was touched by a fielder
- picking her up is she falls while running the bases

Now, on the hug, that’s not assisting unless you see something else that happens. Let’s say the runner rounds but misses third. The base coach grabs the runner to hug her, and while hugging she whispers something in the runner’s ear, and when they end the embrace, the runner goes back and touches third. That is assistance. But if it’s just a hug and then the runner keeps on going, there was no assistance there.

It should be fairly straightforward to recognize, folks. Don’t make this any harder to figure out.


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Well, thats great and all, and thats now how it went down. It's just dumb and unprofessional to do in the first place especially in High School. So my opinion is still teh same. Don't touch the the runners.

 

[The Man In Blue]

NFHS Rule Book

3-4-4
A coach shall not physically assist a runner during playing action. PENALTY: The runner is out and the ball is in play (8-6-5).

8-6-5
(Section 6 The runner is out when Any offensive team member, other than another runner, physically assists the runner. PENALTY: (Arts. 1 through 5) The ball is in play and the runner is out.


So what do you need?
1) Was the ball in play? No -Stop; Yes - go to #2.

2) Did the coach physically touch the runner? No -Stop; Yes - go to #3.

3) Did the contact aid the runner in completing any of the runner’s duties or obligations? Yes - the runner is out; No - knock it off and go sit down.


But ... but ... but he physically aided her celebration!

 

[_MIA_]

Why do you need a rule book definition of assistance?

Because the OP has a bone to pick with the coach and chose this hill die on?

 

[The Man In Blue]

Because the OP has a bone to pick with the coach and chose this hill die on?

I don't disagree with this, but to the OP's credit the first place you should look for a definition is the rule book. The first section in most rule sets is "Definitions".

 

[chinamigarden]

Because the OP has a bone to pick with the coach and chose this hill die on?

Whoa. In this thread I’m the OP. And I am merely looking for the rules experts to tell me the rule. Which they have.

 

[_MIA_]

Whoa. In this thread I’m the OP. And I am merely looking for the rules experts to tell me the rule. Which they have.

Sorry..I meant the OP for this topic..it started in a different thread. Somebody getting all bent out of shape because a coach was overexuberant (yet within the rules it appears) would seem to have other unresolved issues with said coach..