Obstruction?

[sluggers]

NCAA Rule 9.3 Obstruction

Obstruction is the act of a defensive team member that impedes the progress of a runner or batter-runner who is legally running the bases, unless the fielder is in possession of the ball, in the act of fielding a batted ball or about to receive a thrown ball...

Notes:

1. The defensive player must be in the process of catching the ball and not merely positioning, waiting for a throw to arrive.​

 

[Cannonball]

Tonight, dd is pitching and runner on first. Bunt fielded by 3rd. Dd covers 3rd and they are bringing the runner. Throw from 1st sails some and dd has to dive into baseline to catch the ball. Catches it as the runner hits her. Coach wants obstruction since dd's dive inhibited the runner. Ump ruled the errant throw necessitated the dive and so, fielder (dd) was well within her rights to catch the ball. Their coach was furious.

 

[JC heir]

2 Questions on the same lines. little league or asa play

1. On a bunt, catcher fields the ball & runner is running down the baseline(not outside). it is my understanding if the catcher hits the baserunner, the runner is out for interference?? True or false??

2.same scenario, but catcher misses the baserunner & throws a wild throw trying to avoid hitting baserunner. Is there interferance for this situation??

 

[Comp]

On a throw up the 1st baseline, if the runner is not running within the designated running lane and gets plunked by the ball or causes a wild throw, they are out, ball is dead and all runners return to last base touched.

 

[StacieM]

Gary - you're right, defender is not called for interference. Please excuse my use of the incorrect term.

On a batted ball, YES! Otherwise, why should they?

In my words that you quoted, immediately preceding that it says "In the scenario that I was talking about - tag plays at bases" we're not discussing batted balls.

In BOTH catcher obstruction calls described in this thread...one by myself and one by another poster - the BALL arrived BEFORE the runner, so the defender was in possession of the ball trying to apply a tag when the runner arrived. Why should they be called for obstruction?

IMHO - the better line is straight to the base!

Straight is quicker providing you'll actually reach the bag, if the defender is right there and is ready to tag you, why would you go right into the tag and make it easy for them? Not only that, it's not always smart for a person my size (5'2" 110 when I was playing high school) to slide directly into players who were a good 40-50lbs heavier than I am. For players who choose to dive, I certainly wouldn't advise diving arms/hands/head first straight into a defenders legs. JMHO but I would rather avoid the "head on" contact if possible. Especially if another route is going to make it tougher for the defender to tag me.

Also, I've seen SS catchers receive the ball inside the base path, so they have to reach out their arm to get their glove into the basepath - sliding straight into that is almost like giving up the out. Often times that tag can easily be escaped by sliding to the outside of the bag instead of straight at it.

The only reason I asked about a runner heading straight for a bag having to move is because you mentioned that my line of thinking suggested that the offense shouldn't have to move for the defense. In that described situation (runner running for 2b while defender trying to make a throw from 2b to 1b), you asked "why should they?" So are you now agreeing with my line of thinking or not?

There is not just one spot to catch a incoming throw.

and there is not just one spot to run, you have 3 ft to either side of the path giving you a 6 foot wide "path" to run in - smart base runners do not restrict themselves by using only the line directly into the bag which may possibly straight into the defender or into the tag the defender is trying to make.

Because the defense does not have a play on the runner and can not hinder the offense unless they do have a play.

In the scenario's described the defender HAD THE BALL and was being called for obstruction. Those are the calls that I find annoying. I do not have a problem with the call being made on a defender who is just standing in the path of the runner without a play.

What is the difference in a catcher hindering a runner not waiting on the ball and a catcher hindering a runner waiting on the ball? NOTHING, both are hindering the runner!

Again...in the situations described by myself and by another poster...ball was there first. I'm not defending the catchers who are hindering runners without the ball.

Comp is right about the call on the throw up the 1b line.

Cannonball: I agree with the ump call on that one.

I've seen that call in a DI game too. SS going to 2b to cover on a steal. Throw is high so she jumps to get it. I had the game on DVR so I rewinded and watched again. She clearly leaves the ground on the SS side of the bag and comes down with the ball on the 2b side of the bag and tags the runner. She's called for obstruction. Another bogus obstruction call IMHO

 

[SnocatzDad]

Stacie,

My arm's about 2ft long without a glove. The bases are only 15" wide. That means that any average person can stand on the inside of the basepath and reach any point well across it for a catch or a tag. If you add bending at the waist and leaning I think you'd be suprised how much territory you can cover from a position just outside the basepath.

I understand you would like to see the obstruction rule nudged away from where it currently is, but for those of us that don't like collisions I'm happy with where it's at, and though there are others that feel as you do, there are probably people who would like to see the defense forced to give up the basepath even after they receive the ball and make a tag as best they can without blocking the runners access to the base.

 

[sluggers]

ASA Rule 8, Section 2, E: Batter-runner is out when the batter-runner runs outside the three-foot lane and, in the judgment of the umpire, interferes with the fielder taking the throw at first base.
​

Note that this is a judgment call on the part of the umpire. So, the safer course of action for the catcher is to move to the inside and throw out the runner at 1B on a bunt attempt.

There is an incorrect impression that circulates through the softball newbies that the catcher on a bunt should throw the ball into the back of the batter-runner if the batter-runner is not in the running lane.

 

[GaryBarrentine]

the BALL arrived BEFORE the runner, so the defender was in possession of the ball trying to apply a tag when the runner arrived. Why should they be called for obstruction?

You stated the ball and runner arrived very close together, now if the runner deviated (i.e. slowed, changed direction) from her/his original base path prior to the defender having possesion of the ball, that is the classic definition of obstruction. That is why the defender should be called for obstruction!

Straight is quicker providing you'll actually reach the bag, if the defender is right there and is ready to tag you, why would you go right into the tag and make it easy for them?

We are not discussing defenders waiting with the ball to tag a runner, we are discussing defenders standing in a runners chosen base path without the ball or waiting to catch a thrown ball!

In that described situation (runner running for 2b while defender trying to make a throw from 2b to 1b), you asked "why should they?" So are you now agreeing with my line of thinking or not?

You are trying to compare apples and oranges. So, no I am not agreeing with your line of thinking.

and there is not just one spot to run, you have 3 ft to either side of the path giving you a 6 foot wide "path" to run in

Only when a play is being made on the runner, otherwise the runner can run anywhere they wish.

In the scenario's described the defender HAD THE BALL and was being called for obstruction.

Again, because the obstruction occured BEFORE the defender had the ball. It is simple, get the ball, then defend the base.

GaryB

 

[StacieM]

There is an incorrect impression that circulates through the softball newbies that the catcher on a bunt should throw the ball into the back of the batter-runner if the batter-runner is not in the running lane.

Yikes! I'm with you on teaching the catcher to do their best to clear their throwing lane any time they are throwing down the line regardless of where the runner is.

Gary: curious - how do you feel about the calls where obstruction wasn't called because an off throw took the defender into the path of the runner? If a good throw takes you into the path of the runner, is it all that different?

You mention obstruction occurring before the ball getting there because the defender was already in the path (even though the runner wasn't there yet) thus causing the runner to change direction or slow. I do see that happen and I suppose I can see the point, however, I guess the problem I have with it is the fact that as a runner, I wouldn't choose the path in which I'd have to change direction or slow down (especially if the defender is already there before ball or runner as you are indicating as the reason the obstruction is being called). As a runner I'd assess the area and choose the path of least resistance that allows me to go hard all the way, avoid collision, and get safe by making the tag as tough as possible (make that defender reach to get me vs going into her).

Snocatz: I agree you can cover a good amount of area, but being able to do so directly after catching a ball on a close play is not just a matter of being able to reach.

Plus you're indicating that if a runner is to the outside of the basepath and their outstretched arm is just grabbing on to the bag, YOU, standing 15" away on the inside of the bag/basepath, would be able, with your outstretched arm, to reach across the 15" of the bag AND across the distance of the runner's outstretched arm to tag their body?

That means that you're arm would be able to span the base and their arm length.

Or are you banking on being able to apply the tag their hand/arm?

Granted I believe you could reach after having to either shift the weight off your feet and sorta give/lean into them or you'll have to move your feet and take a step to reach all the way to the runner's body.

But moving the ball the rest of that way (from the point you caught it on the inside of the basepath to the point you need to tag the runner across the other side of the basepath and over the span of their arm which is another 3ft away if you add 15" of the bag and 21 or so inches of their arm) with your body rather than allowing a throw to get it there is slower.

I've seen numerous runners get around a tag by sliding to the outside or away from where the defender is. I've done it myself a number of times including plays at the plate. Never did these runners have to slow or deviate their path. Good runners will run directly to the point that enables them to get to the base while also making the tag as tough as possible on the defender.

I understand that rules are always being updated to help ensure safety of the players. However there are times when the rules and the calls take away from great plays by the girls and those are the calls that just don't seem right. The girls are out there doing what they need to do to get the ball from point A in the outfield to point B and home plate and apply a tag to a runner trying to score and it gets taken away from them.

I guess I feel like if the ball is coming to you and you have a play and you're focused on that ball coming in and you're concentration is on securing that incoming ball and applying a tag, and you're in a good spot to catch it, you shouldn't need to worry about trying to find another spot to catch that ball so that you can get out of the way of the runner and give the runner a clear easy shot at the base. We don't expect the defense to do that on a hit ball - why is it so different on a ball being thrown to them by their teammate when they have a play on the runner (especially at the plate which means if you don't make the play, the other team scores)?

I don't see less collisions happening because of this rule on plays that are close where the ball and the runner are arriving almost the same time. I've seen a number of plays on our own team this year where throws are on the money at home plate or slightly up the line (which take our catcher directly into a runner just starting their slide), the catcher isn't obstructing because they are out of the path when the ball is in flight, but on the catch or right after they get down into that path to apply the tag. Runners are getting stopped dead (our catchers are not scrawny), not even reaching home plate because they end up sliding right into the catcher's legs.

If the biggest concern is safety - I don't see this rule making a big difference. Close plays at the plate still involve contact/collision when the throw and the runner arrive at the same spot at about the same time regardless of where the defender was prior to that moment in time.

For coaches/parents that do not like collisions: Collisions can also be avoided by better choices made by runners, not only by having the defense give a clear path.

To be completely honest, as a player, I always felt the threat of collision more on defense than on offense. On offense I have the choice of where I want to go. On defense I have to move toward the runner in order to get the out and if the ball takes me in their path, I have them coming full speed right at me and most times I'm not looking at them, I'm focused on catching the ball.

I was always involved in a "collision" more as a defender than as a runner. As a runner I always felt I had more control over whether or not I was going to be involved in a collision. And if I was going to make contact, it sure wasn't going to be much. Like I said, I'm not huge, most players were bigger than I was. The worse "collision" I was ever involved in as a runner was sliding into home when the catcher was standing tall to make a catch and when I slid into her feet, she fell on me with the ball. As a defender if I had to move to a ball (since I was a middle infielder we're mostly talking about covering on steals) to catch it and tag and that runner was coming straight at me, there wasn't much I could do about it if I wanted to get the out.

I think it's easier for a runner to avoid a defender...they are looking at that direction and have their eyes there the entire time. They can see where the defender is and take a path that does not lead to direct/full contact. Defenders are focused on ball with runner in the corner or their eye and have to position themselves in the best spot to make a catch on a ball that they do not control the direction of.

From the safety standpoint I think it's more effective to also teach runners to avoid contact than to put the full responsibility on the defender. If my player has a ball coming right at her, I want her to be able to focus 100% on that ball. If she's now starting to worry about where the runner is and if she's standing in the right place and if she has to move and she takes her eye of the ball for split second and misjudges it that's not safe for her either. In fact the play just became more dangerous for her rather than more safe because now she's not able to fully focus on the ball being bullet-ed to her.

I never teach defenders to stand right in front of the bag on a tag play - especially not to wait there for a ball when they have a player coming full force at them. However, if the path of the thrown ball takes them there, I want them to be able to make a strong, sure move to the ball to make their play. I don't want them going "half way" or tentatively because they're worried about being called for obstruction. When players play guessing or unsure they are more likely to get hurt.

Obstruction calls when a player has zero play on the ball and are impeding the runner by being in the running path or blocking a base (slowing them down, causing contact, making them change direction) should always be called.

Did you know that you can take a path a full two feet off the base (2ft off at the end point) and you're only lengthening the distance you run by less than 1/2 an inch (vs going in a direct line from base to base)? (based on the length of a hypotenuse of a right triangle where the long side is 60ft and the short side is the 2ft.) That's almost nothing - on a tag play less than half an inch is minute. So you can get there just about as fast and make the defense have to reach another 2 feet to get you. My arm from finger tip to shoulder is only about 22" so that's about as far away as my body can get while still allowing me to reach in and grab/touch the bag/plate. Just part of why I opt for not going direct from bag to bag on a tag play.

 

[Aurora AC]

ASA Rule 8, Section 2, E: Batter-runner is out when the batter-runner runs outside the three-foot lane and, in the judgment of the umpire, interferes with the fielder taking the throw at first base.
​

Note that this is a judgment call on the part of the umpire. So, the safer course of action for the catcher is to move to the inside and throw out the runner at 1B on a bunt attempt.

There is an incorrect impression that circulates through the softball newbies that the catcher on a bunt should throw the ball into the back of the batter-runner if the batter-runner is not in the running lane.

Trying to make that out at first can be tough when the runner is inside the baseline, and if the umps arent making the call, there are teams that will take advantage of it. This is a few pictures from a tournament in Quebec last summer. The runners made close plays at first very challenging, especially for our 1st baseman.....she had great concentration and made the outs...in fact , she didnt even realize how far inside the lines some of these runners were (in the last 2 pictures you cant see the baseline as it's hidden behind the fence rail, but it gives you an idea of how far inside the runner was). We lost the game 10-0 and it had nothing to do with the aggressive 'inside' running, but it does demonstrate how some runners push the limits.