NSA: Ball thrown out of play

[Dime]

Our team doesn't play very many NSA tournaments. We played in one this past weekend at a facility that did not have fences in the outfield. As such the fence along the first base line extend a little ways into the outfield and then stopped. This created a situation where any overthrows to first base from third or home (bunt attempts) had a good chance of going out of play.

This happened several times on Saturday. Each time it happened the batter had already reached first and started to go to second on the overthrow before the ball went out of play. Each time we were awarded second base only. We were expecting two bases but we don't play many NSA tournaments so we looked up the rules at the end of the day Saturday to be better prepared for Sunday.

Even after reading the rules our coaches could not agree on what the wording actually meant in practice. I've included a section of the NSA rules below. According to 2) below it seems to me that the umps got the call right because at the time of the pitch the batter/runner was in the box and 2 bases would put her at second. Our team's confusion is that at the time the ball actually went out of play the batter/runner had already reached first and took a couple of steps toward second. Additionally sometimes this happened with a runner on first that was stealing second and was already at or past second when the overthrow happened. The runner leaving first was always awarded third even though they were at second before the overthrow happened. Any insights or comments would be appreciated.

NSA Rule Book Section 5 e)

When the ball is in play and is overthrown (beyond the boundary lines) or
is blocked.
[42]EFFECT: Awarded bases shall be determined by the position of the
baserunner(s) at the time of the infraction. All base runners will be
allowed to advance one (1) base on a pitched ball that goes directly out
of play.
EFFECT: For offensive equipment or an offensive player causing a
blocked ball, the player closest to home plate is declared out, and all
other runners must return to the last base touched when the ball
becomes blocked.
1) The ball is dead. In all cases where a thrown ball goes into the
spectators’ seats, goes over, through or under any fence surrounding
the playing field hits any person or object not engaged in the game,
including bats lying near benches, goes into the players benches,
whether the ball rebounds onto the playing field or not, or remains in
the meshes of any wire screen, each and every baserunner shall be
awarded two (2) bases.
2) When the first throw is made by an infielder, two (2) bases shall be
awarded. The award shall be governed by the position of each runner
at the time the pitch was made; however, if all runners, including the
batter-runner, have advanced at least one (1) base when the infielder
makes the wild throw on the first play after a pitch, the award shall
be governed by the position of the runners when the wild throw was
made.
3) When a throw is made by an outfielder or is the result of any
succeeding play or attempted play, the two (2) base award shall be
governed by the position of each runner and the last base he/she has
touched at the time the throw was made. If two runners are between
the same bases, the award is based on the position of the lead runner.
4) When a fielder loses possession of the ball such as on an attempted
tag and the ball enters a dead ball area or becomes blocked, all
runners are awarded one (1) base from the last base touched at the
time the ball entered the dead ball area or became blocked. If a
runner touches the next base and returns to his/her original base, the
original base he/she left is considered the “last base touched” for the
purposes of an over throw award.

 

[marriard]

Reading your description it looks like they likely got it right.

This is almost always a time of the throw penalty on a throw from the field that goes into dead ball territory. The few exceptions are time of the pitch (normally a pitch that goes straight out of play without a fielding play).

So where were the runners when the ball was thrown - not when it goes into the dead ball area. For example and to keep it simple we will assume no one on base - if the throw happens and the runner hasn't reached first yet - and the throw goes OOB, the runner gets two bases - first and second - so she would be on 2B. If for some reason the throw happened AFTER the girl had reached 1st, then she gets third... 2B + 3B are the two bases awarded.

The NSA wording is unnecessarily complex. Especially 2). There is really no need to distinguish between infield and outfield throws and so on.

 

[Dime]

Thanks for clarifying. What you said makes sense but I agree the rule book wording is unnecessarily complicated.

 

[kingsoda]

Reading your description it looks like they likely got it right.

This is almost always a time of the throw penalty on a throw from the field that goes into dead ball territory. The few exceptions are time of the pitch (normally a pitch that goes straight out of play without a fielding play).

So where were the runners when the ball was thrown - not when it goes into the dead ball area. For example and to keep it simple we will assume no one on base - if the throw happens and the runner hasn't reached first yet - and the throw goes OOB, the runner gets two bases - first and second - so she would be on 2B. If for some reason the throw happened AFTER the girl had reached 1st, then she gets third... 2B + 3B are the two bases awarded.

The NSA wording is unnecessarily complex. Especially 2). There is really no need to distinguish between infield and outfield throws and so on.

First, I agree that it looks like they got it right (assuming that the throw was made before the runner reached first base).

Your second sentence confused me a bit, when you said "this is almost always a time of the throw penalty". In the normal course, isn't this a "time of pitch" penalty? If the normal course play is an overthrow to first where the throw gets made before the BR reaches first, then time of pitch governs (i.e. two bases from time of pitch), which I think is what happened in the example from D.

 

[marriard]

Your second sentence confused me a bit, when you said "this is almost always a time of the throw penalty". In the normal course, isn't this a "time of pitch" penalty? If the normal course play is an overthrow to first where the throw gets made before the BR reaches first, then time of pitch governs (i.e. two bases from time of pitch), which I think is what happened in the example from D.

This is why the NSA wording is unnecessarily complex. The most common scenario you describe above would give the same reward - time of throw or time of pitch. It also changes back to time of throw if all the runners have passed one base... so it might as well have been time of throw in the first place.

 

[kingsoda]

Thanks for that - I think understand what you were saying now, which is basically that you'll almost always award based on time of throw. Exceptions being in situations where the pitch goes straight out of play or in certain other situations that, while we might be able to come up with contrived hyptheticals, occur rarely in actual play.

 

[jackfrost]

Your answer is in the wording of the rule you posted. Although the NSA rule is different than NFHS or USA softball rules, what you posted is clear. The statement says " The award shall be governed by the position of each runner at the time the pitch was made". In your case, at the time of the pitch your batter was at home plate. Two bases will be 1st and 2nd.

What you posted from the rules also says "if the runners, including the batter-runner, have advanced at least one base, then the 2 base award shall be governed by the position of the runners when the wild throw was made." Although they don't say this part clearly, the term "wild throw was made" means when it left the thrower's hand, not when it went out of bounds. I don't umpire baseball but I think the wording they use is similar in baseball, but different than most other softball codes.

If your runner was already on first base and then the ball left the thrower's hands, they would be awarded 3rd base. Dose not matter where they are when the ball eventually goes out of bounds.

You posted this among other statements in your OP:
2) When the first throw is made by an infielder, two (2) bases shall be
awarded. The award shall be governed by the position of each runner
at the time the pitch was made; however, if all runners, including the
batter-runner, have advanced at least one (1) base when the infielder
makes the wild throw on the first play after a pitch, the award shall
be governed by the position of the runners when the wild throw was
made.