My DD lost her 4 seam spin after a bike crash

[riseball]

First thing, it seems you're assuming I accept the concept that a "riseball" for example cannot be the "fastest pitch". I do not believe that. I do not think there was a distinguishable difference in my own personal speed of my drop and rise. On any given day, one might me 1-2 mph faster than the other if I was throwing both at max speed. I would and could vary my speed on the drop (changing speeds, not changing up) but would not do that on a rise. Anyway... in all of the scenarios you described @riseball, the key was the sentence you said about all the pitchers having same spin and downward movement: then they're all throwing drops!! If you wanna rename it to a fastball, go head. If you wanna rename it to the MLPS, go ahead. But at the end of the day, what you described with movement is a drop. My entire point in this is: if you have a ball with 12/6 spin and movement, why would anyone need another pitch that doesn't move?

I wish I could tell you how many times I've given up HR's and tried figuring it out in my head and mechanically between innings "Why won't the ball move today?" Some days the ball simply dances. Other days it stays flat and I'd pay the price. I simply cannot fathom a pitch that doesn't move on purpose. It makes ZERO sense.

If she's got 12/6 spin but no break, it's likely the release point. Fix that, get the ball dropping. In all the BP I've ever thrown to college age hitters from mid majors to Power 5, the drop is the pitch they struggled with the most.

Back to my original question:

...I would love to know the specific spin, axis, and movement that universally defines a fastball ...

It would seem in your case your fastest pitch on any given day is your rise and/or drop. So based on the conventional definition of a fastball being your fastest pitch, your rise and/or drop is also your fastball is it not? Or are you redefining a fastball to be something else possibly just a pitch that does not move? In which case how is the speed of the pitch relevant, isn't it just a bad pitch? While I agree that most successful pitchers do not at least intentionally throw pitches that do not move (bad pitches). It seems counterintuitive that successful pitchers do not throw their fastest pitch. Why would a pitcher not throw their fastest pitch (fastball) if it happens to be a rise and/or drop if it has great movement?

 

[Lance Steckler]

regardless of the name of the pitches, I think we all agree that pitches that do not move get hit hard. Location helps mitigate this to some degree. Bullet spin pitches tend to come in straight with limited drop or rise on them.

if a pitcher throws her FASTBALL with good 12-6 spin and it drops say 4''. and then she throws her drop which to the hitter looks just like a fast ball, except it drops say 8+'', isn't that the whole point of keeping hitters off balance and fooling the hitters? The same thing is to be said with Pitch X and a change up.

just my opinion.

 

[Hillhouse]

Back to my original question:

...I would love to know the specific spin, axis, and movement that universally defines a fastball ...

It would seem in your case your fastest pitch on any given day is your rise and/or drop. So based on the conventional definition of a fastball being your fastest pitch, your rise and/or drop is also your fastball is it not? Or are you redefining a fastball to be something else possibly just a pitch that does not move? In which case how is the speed of the pitch relevant, isn't it just a bad pitch? While I agree that most successful pitchers do not at least intentionally throw pitches that do not move (bad pitches). It seems counterintuitive that successful pitchers do not throw their fastest pitch. Why would a pitcher not throw their fastest pitch (fastball) if it happens to be a rise and/or drop if it has great movement?

Not trying to be difficult but the premise of your question seems off to me. Taking these questions one at a time: Yes, my fastest pitch is either a rise or a drop, depending on the day. (Usually the riseball).

I think where I may be losing you here is the word "Fastball". For me, and my students, I jokingly tell them that the "Fastball" is now the F word. And we don't say the F-word. That word would not pass my lips as it pertains to any pitch I'd throw. So I'm not sure if that's what you're asking.

I am increasingly more and more confused by the people here and their definition of a fastball. Many keep characterizing it as a ball that has 6/12 spin and goes down: THEN THAT'S A DROP! If the pitcher can do that, I fail to see why they would want to throw something that doesn't move. Are they just hoping a flat pitch sneaks by the hitter and they don't swing? That's Russian Roulette. Or if you're Sal on the Howard Stern show: Rush and Roulette. lol.

So to answer your last question, if the pitcher is throwing their fastest pitch, and that ball goes up or down, then they aren't throwing a fastball by most people's conventional definition. If it goes up, it's a rise, not a fastball. If it goes down, it's a drop not a fastball. If the pitcher can do either or both of those things, then throwing a pitch without movement isn't the wisest of choices.

 

[Hillhouse]

"Fastball" is a term used primarily in Canada which describes fastpitch, usually men's fastpitch but it works for both genders. The ISC (International Softball Congress) is a male only fastpitch organization. They call their championship the World FASTBALL Tournament. But that has nothing to do with the pitch "fastball". It's just a name used to distinguish between fast and slow pitch softball.

 

[cnardone]

We discussed naming conventions in another thread, there is a proponent of release that goes into the naming as well.

David Cone used to throw anyone of his pitches at different speeds, with different amount of break. Same type of release. Same type of spin so even at different speeds and break, the pitch is still called the same thing.

Greg Maddux and Cliff Lee both relied heavily on a '2 seam fastball'. They both had so much movement (and deception), they could have been called screwballs. But the way they threw the ball was not a screw ball. So, it is called a 2 Seam fastball.

So it 'seems' if movement and release / spin are the same it is called the same pitch regardless of velocity? But if only movement is the same but spin / release are different it is a different pitch?

When my DD is 'right (she is 11, she is not always right), she gets downward movement on her fastball. She is working on a drop. When it drops, it drops more than her fastball. I understand that it is all a release point thing. But DD is being taught slightly different mechanics between the pitches. So are they two different pitches?

 

[Hillhouse]

We discussed naming conventions in another thread, there is a proponent of release that goes into the naming as well.

David Cone used to throw anyone of his pitches at different speeds, with different amount of break. Same type of release. Same type of spin so even at different speeds and break, the pitch is still called the same thing.

Greg Maddux and Cliff Lee both relied heavily on a '2 seam fastball'. They both had so much movement (and deception), they could have been called screwballs. But the way they threw the ball was not a screw ball. So, it is called a 2 Seam fastball.

So it 'seems' if movement and release / spin are the same it is called the same pitch regardless of velocity? But if only movement is the same but spin / release are different it is a different pitch?

When my DD is 'right (she is 11, she is not always right), she gets downward movement on her fastball. She is working on a drop. When it drops, it drops more than her fastball. I understand that it is all a release point thing. But DD is being taught slightly different mechanics between the pitches. So are they two different pitches?

Personally, I can't answer your last question because I don't know what she's being taught. My question to you is, why not work HARD on your drop and stop working on a "fastball"? It's been said a 1000 times that its better to have 2-3 GREAT pitches vs. 6 mediocre ones. So why put effort into something that won't help long term?

I think 2 seamers work better in baseball because there is a greater distance for the "movement" to occur. In softball, the pitching distance, pitching speed, ball size, seam height all play a crucial role in the lack of effectiveness a 2 seamer has. Now I know someone will jump up and down yelling that their daughter throws a wicked 2 seamer and that I'm obviously wrong.

Every person I've ever talked to who's played both sports says hitting fastpitch softball is quite a bit more difficult than baseball. So a good hitter in fastpitch has to be VERY good with hand eye coordination, reflexes, vision, anticipation, and sometimes a good old fashion guess at the plate. But, knowing that a hitter in the box is trying to do 1 of 2 things: pick my pitch to see it in advance or identify the spin out of my hand to know what pitch is coming. A 2 seam pitch in softball does not spin tightly, there is a CONSIDERABLE difference in seeing a pitch with 4 seams vs. 2 seams. I do not want the hitter to have that tactical advantage of being able to see the pitch because of the sloppy, untight 2 seam rotation.

There is a difficult balance many on here face every day and every season: doing what it takes to win TODAY vs. developing the best overall player/pitcher they can be LONG TERM. So a 2 seam pitch might seem so great at the 12-13U level, when kids are still learning to swing vs. waiting for 4 balls to pass by. But, as she gets older, so does the competition. That 2 seam pitch will have less and less effectiveness.

 

[nightskiier]

UPDATE from the OP. Wow - this thread really took off after I initially posted it. We got a lot of good information out of it and we switched pitching coaches to someone who could focus a lot more on improving her hand and upper body mechanics. The spins have all come back - and as the early replies said, she rarely throws the 4 seam, but it's there as her backup pitch. She hit a growth spurt during all of this so we have to sort out the lower body, now, but she's now playing up and pitching for a 14U team.

Thanks again!

 

[cnardone]

Personally, I can't answer your last question because I don't know what she's being taught. My question to you is, why not work HARD on your drop and stop working on a "fastball"? It's been said a 1000 times that its better to have 2-3 GREAT pitches vs. 6 mediocre ones. So why put effort into something that won't help long term?

some how I missed this. I totally agree on 2-3 great pitches. I can only hope, my DD gets to 2 great pitches. The plan for this past winter was to really work the Drop. Unfortunately, my dd got Little League shoulder (over hand throwing related). She shut down, started and then got shut down again. Then broke her toe 1 week after getting cleared to throw again. So at this point, we are only 2 lessons in, and the majority of her time is focused on getting back to being consistent with location and the change.

Going back the fastball discussion, my dd has below average velocity. But her control is good (for a first year 12U). I mention this because she has shown (or have batters shown???) a consistent ability to get swings up and out of the zone. I mention her velocity because the 3 harder throwers on her team don't seem to get hitters swinging at those pitches. I understand that as she gets older, the hitters will get more disciplined, that mediocre fastball up and out of the zone probably won't be swung at nearly as much as it currently is. But right now, that pitch is working for her. It needs to be thrown.

This is a situation of, of course you throw the fastball as purpose pitches. But those purpose pitches are thrown a fraction of the time you'll throw the drop?