Metrics for determining piching volume progression throughout high school?

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Apr 28, 2019
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What is the difference between a 2 seam and 4 seam "Fastball"? Aside from the fact hitters can see the rotation INFINITELY better when a ball is thrown with 2 seams? I'm not sure I understand the practicality of having 2 different pitches that are the same.

Bill

Ahhhh the grip would be the main difference. Our two seam which we refer to as cutter/splitter breaks down and away from RHH. Similar to a curve but not as dramatic a break at faster speed.

Our four seam is more of a straight hit your spot pitch.
 

inumpire

Observer, but has an opinion
Oct 31, 2014
277
43
She has her main pitches that get called the most in games. Four seam FB, two seam FB, curve, & change-up.
She also knows how to throw drop curve, rise, three seam FB, & drop. I believe she experimented a little with screwball as well.
New pitching coach says she should have 3/4 really good pitches. I think you should also develop other pitches in the offseason.
Pitching is all about mechanics and confidence. I know every ten year old father says his daughter has at least 7 pitches she throws. In reality that’s not the case.
Very hard to master more than 3/4 pitches. IMO you always want to be improving and expanding your game.
As a umpire for over 25 years, I have never at any level seen a pitcher have 7 pitches and have command of them all. Not sure what age your daughter is, but most likely if she can hit her spot 75 % of the time, and develop a good change up, she is on here way to have a pretty successful career at the HS level. In travel ball she will probably have to have a 3rd or 4th pitch. But if she can’t Control these pitches, they aren’t going to help her a lot..........and as Mike Candrea told me a few years back at a coaching clinic, there are only a handful of pitchers that can REALLY throw a rise ball...........a lot of them develop the spin, and can get the same result when thrown at the right time. I.E pop up......but it isn’t a true rise ball.
 
Apr 28, 2019
1,423
83
As a umpire for over 25 years, I have never at any level seen a pitcher have 7 pitches and have command of them all. Not sure what age your daughter is, but most likely if she can hit her spot 75 % of the time, and develop a good change up, she is on here way to have a pretty successful career at the HS level. In travel ball she will probably have to have a 3rd or 4th pitch. But if she can’t Control these pitches, they aren’t going to help her a lot..........and as Mike Candrea told me a few years back at a coaching clinic, there are only a handful of pitchers that can REALLY throw a rise ball...........a lot of them develop the spin, and can get the same result when thrown at the right time. I.E pop up......but it isn’t a true rise ball.
As a umpire for over 25 years, I have never at any level seen a pitcher have 7 pitches and have command of them all. Not sure what age your daughter is, but most likely if she can hit her spot 75 % of the time, and develop a good change up, she is on here way to have a pretty successful career at the HS level. In travel ball she will probably have to have a 3rd or 4th pitch. But if she can’t Control these pitches, they aren’t going to help her a lot..........and as Mike Candrea told me a few years back at a coaching clinic, there are only a handful of pitchers that can REALLY throw a rise ball...........a lot of them develop the spin, and can get the same result when thrown at the right time. I.E pop up......but it isn’t a true rise ball.

Like I mentioned she has her go to 4 pitches she uses in games. Pitches can change slightly based on warm-ups.

If she feels she has a good feel for her drop she will incorporate that and drop one of the other pitches for instance. So still using 3/4 pitches in games just varies.

As eluded to earlier most pitchers have 3/4 pitches they throw well and stick with.

The adage seems to be you can have 3/4 pitches you throw well or more than that you don’t throw as well.

Why not work on as many pitches as possible? Learning is fun right? The more pitches you have confidence in and can throw well makes you a better pitcher IMO.

It’s all about making the batter uncomfortable and keeping them off balance. If I throw 3 pitches the batter has a 1 in 3 chance of guessing right on a given pitch. If I have 7 pitches/options those odds are even better in my favor. I like better!

Being an Ump how would you be able to tell what’s being thrown? I could see you recognizing a fastball, curve, and change-up.

I don’t know how you could determine a drop, rise, screw. Unless your a pitching coach and are familiar with the different arm angles and releases. I would think your attention would be on where the pitch crosses the plate.
What is the difference between a 2 seam and 4 seam "Fastball"? Aside from the fact hitters can see the rotation INFINITELY better when a ball is thrown with 2 seams? I'm not sure I understand the practicality of having 2 different pitches that are the same.

Bill

Ahhhh the grip would be the main difference. Our two seam which we refer to as cutter/splitter breaks down and away from RHH. Similar to a curve but not as dramatic a break at faster speed.

Our four seam is more of a straight hit your spot pitch.
 
Aug 21, 2008
2,359
113
Like I mentioned she has her go to 4 pitches she uses in games. Pitches can change slightly based on warm-ups.

If she feels she has a good feel for her drop she will incorporate that and drop one of the other pitches for instance. So still using 3/4 pitches in games just varies.

As eluded to earlier most pitchers have 3/4 pitches they throw well and stick with.

The adage seems to be you can have 3/4 pitches you throw well or more than that you don’t throw as well.

Why not work on as many pitches as possible? Learning is fun right? The more pitches you have confidence in and can throw well makes you a better pitcher IMO.

It’s all about making the batter uncomfortable and keeping them off balance. If I throw 3 pitches the batter has a 1 in 3 chance of guessing right on a given pitch. If I have 7 pitches/options those odds are even better in my favor. I like better!

Being an Ump how would you be able to tell what’s being thrown? I could see you recognizing a fastball, curve, and change-up.

I don’t know how you could determine a drop, rise, screw. Unless your a pitching coach and are familiar with the different arm angles and releases. I would think your attention would be on where the pitch crosses the plate.


Ahhhh the grip would be the main difference. Our two seam which we refer to as cutter/splitter breaks down and away from RHH. Similar to a curve but not as dramatic a break at faster speed.

Our four seam is more of a straight hit your spot pitch.

I don't even know what to say to what you just wrote, both to myself and the umpire. Since you seem firmly on your way in the course you've chosen, I doubt anything I (or anyone else) could say would dis-sway you. I sincerely hope it works out for you and your DD.

Bill
 
Jun 8, 2016
16,118
113
I don't even know what to say to what you just wrote, both to myself and the umpire. Since you seem firmly on your way in the course you've chosen, I doubt anything I (or anyone else) could say would dis-sway you. I sincerely hope it works out for you and your DD.

Bill
I know next to nothing about softball pitching but I assume (based upon your response..or lack of one 😂 ) in your experience the difference between a 2 seam fastball and a 4 seam fastball is nothing like what one sees in baseball in terms of the two-seamer moving a lot more than the 4 seamer?
 
Aug 21, 2008
2,359
113
I know next to nothing about softball pitching but I assume (based upon your response..or lack of one 😂 ) in your experience the difference between a 2 seam fastball and a 4 seam fastball is nothing like what one sees in baseball in terms of the two-seamer moving a lot more than the 4 seamer?

Well, here's what I'll say. As players get older, the hitters get more experienced. They will typically learn 1 of 2 things (GREAT hitters learn both): picking the pitcher or reading rotation. In a perfect world, a rise spins backward with 4 seams, a drop spins forward with 4 seams. Out of my hand, I would not want the hitter to be able to tell the difference immediately. However, when you do something, anything, with 2 seams it's a much looser rotation and infinitely easier for hitters to read and react to. The cost benefit of that slight sideways movement is reduced drastically when the hitter can see it so easily. So, in the 12U and even some 14U play, this may not matter much. You may think your pitcher is on the path to success because this "works". But I'm here to tell you, as you get older, and the weaker competition falls off, it won't work. I have never made a secret of the fact the word "Fastball" should be banned from a pitchers vocabulary. It should be the new "F" word. As MadBandit even said, "it's a straight hit your spot pitch". Well, a "straight" anything is bad news. Do you realize how many HR's I've given up in my life on balls that didn't move? Where I walk back to the dugout and say, "it didn't move, it's flat, they're teeing off". I can't fathom doing that on purpose. But all of this goes back to FAR TOO MANY pitching coaches making the dropball 1000x harder than it actually is. Why throw a "straight pitch" when I can do the exact same mechanics and make it move a little? I will simply never understand that. The other thing I'll say is, I was a pretty decent pitcher in my day. I didn't throw 8 pitches. I threw 3. The girls who baffle me are the ones who say they have 8 pitches, they all spin identical. And tough love is required to her, mom, and dad, and say "You don't have 8 pitches. You have 1 pitch you throw 8 spots. There's a big difference."

Bill
 
Oct 4, 2018
4,611
113
What were your three pitches Bill? If I were to guess, 2 seam fastball, 4 seem fastball and drop-change spit ball. ;)

Drop, change, curve? Drop, change, rise?
 
Aug 21, 2008
2,359
113
Rise, drop and change. Obviously with variations: low rise @ knees, higher when necessary, etc. If I'm pitching against the top team in the world, I'd be very lucky to get away with a "curveball" more than once. A pitch that does not change planes usually lands over the fence. However, I've become much more open to this since I got into the coaching side of things (not just pitching coach). For whatever reason, girls seem to struggle with the curveball, even if it doesn't change planes. For the absolute life of me I don't know why, and I've watched countless hours of video from games. Nobody, not even Jesus himself, will convince me of the validity of a "screwball" though. That's a rant I'm sure most don't need to hear!!!!!!!!

Bill
 
Jan 28, 2017
1,662
83
Rise, drop and change. Obviously with variations: low rise @ knees, higher when necessary, etc. If I'm pitching against the top team in the world, I'd be very lucky to get away with a "curveball" more than once. A pitch that does not change planes usually lands over the fence. However, I've become much more open to this since I got into the coaching side of things (not just pitching coach). For whatever reason, girls seem to struggle with the curveball, even if it doesn't change planes. For the absolute life of me I don't know why, and I've watched countless hours of video from games. Nobody, not even Jesus himself, will convince me of the validity of a "screwball" though. That's a rant I'm sure most don't need to hear!!!!!!!!

Bill

Do you throw your rise and drop with angle? Jump towards 1st and throw it low and inside to a RH batter as a variation.
 
Oct 4, 2018
4,611
113
Yeah, from what I understand about the screwball, I'm 100% certain a little girl can't do much with it. So certainly not entering our life as far as I can see.

One dad of a 12 year old we know swears she has 5 pitches. I mean, they've been taking lessons for almost a year now. :)

My daughter caught for this pitcher. The coach would call the pitches, and use fingers 1 through 5 for the 5 pitches. But no location. Just try to get it over, basically.

I had to bite my tongue at the first game, and when I was alone with my DD catcher she told me the coach told her to just call the pitches but they'd all be the exact same and they've have no idea where they would go.
 

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