Men's Fastpitch

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Apr 28, 2019
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It may sound like or seem like I'm picking on you, I'm sorry for that. And I realize we aren't going to change each others' minds, but it's a fun conversation for me. You mentioned you're from the Northeast, me too originally. Just because you don't drive by your neighborhood and see men's fastpitch played doesn't mean it's not there. And I can tell you that the NE USA has a significant men's fastpitch history. IN FACT an assistant coach for the US Jr Men's National team (18u) is from Boston. Doesn't get much more Northeast than that111 So it's there if you wanted to see it. You clearly don't. That's fine. But you can understand my confusion since you said you preferred fastpitch to baseball as a spectator but, you just said as a player you'd choose baseball over FP (even though you've never tried it). EVERYONE I have ever met that played baseball, then went into fastpitch has said how much more they love this game than baseball. EVERYONE. And they all wish they had discovered it sooner.

You mentioned hitting being the same, or similar. I think you're confusing swing mechanics with hitting the ball. Mechanically I think you're right and it's been proven to be almost identical swings. Learning how to hit in FP is very different than baseball. And its a shame this distinction isn't taught more by hitting coaches (including female coaches). Learning how to pick pitchers, identify spins, look for tendencies are all things really never taught much and it's a damn shame. The prettiest swing in the world is meaningless unless they learn how to acclimate in a game and hit the moving pitches.

Bill
Bill how often do you see men’s Fastpitch on TV? How many colleges give men’s Fastpitch scholarships? How many HS’s offer boys Fastpitch as an option?
Not sure how you can consider men’s Fastpitch main stream when the masses don’t know it exists.
I’m a sports fan of all major sports and men’s Fastpitch isn’t one of them. Why? Where do you see it? Is there a men’s Fastpitch pro league with a big TV deal I’m not aware of?
I understand you being a little defensive because you obviously love the sport.
But I have to agree we have no common ground on men’s Fastpitch. I enjoy coaching and working with girls on Fastpitch. I have no desire to play or watch men’s Fastpitch even if I could find any games to watch.
I do get your point that if you really want to find something your passionate about it’s out there. You just have to know where to look.
 
Aug 21, 2008
2,359
113
Bill how often do you see men’s Fastpitch on TV? How many colleges give men’s Fastpitch scholarships? How many HS’s offer boys Fastpitch as an option?
Not sure how you can consider men’s Fastpitch main stream when the masses don’t know it exists.
I’m a sports fan of all major sports and men’s Fastpitch isn’t one of them. Why? Where do you see it? Is there a men’s Fastpitch pro league with a big TV deal I’m not aware of?
I understand you being a little defensive because you obviously love the sport.
But I have to agree we have no common ground on men’s Fastpitch. I enjoy coaching and working with girls on Fastpitch. I have no desire to play or watch men’s Fastpitch even if I could find any games to watch.
I do get your point that if you really want to find something your passionate about it’s out there. You just have to know where to look.

Ok, I'll play. Answering your questions:

1. Never.
2. None.
3. Outside of Missouri, none that I'm aware of.
4. When did I say this was "mainstream"? If you want to have a point by point discussion on this topic, I'm more than willing. But please don't put words in my mouth.
5. You seem to be a walking contradiction, you claim you don't see it yet you have no desire to even look for it. Why? What is so threatening to you about men's fastpitch?
6. I am not defensive about anything here MadBandit. I'm asking you questions trying to understand your logic. But your discussion points are contradictory. You have repeatedly said about your own lack of interest in men's fastpitch, your lack of desire to ever see it, etc. Yet this was supposed to be how your DD felt. I think your own opinions on this subject are spilling over to your kid, based off everything you've said. Based on your logic, you'd rather your kid see someone who pitched 10 games at a D3 school rather than take lessons from Mike White (who is on the Mt. Rushmore of all time great pitchers) because he's a man. I'm sorry but that just doesn't make sense to me.
7. NO, my point was not about passion. My point was it's out there if you wanted to see it. You do not want to see it. But please don't tell me it's not in your area when I can tell you it is. It is not the highest level (most likely) but it's still there.
8. You're right that we have no common ground on men's fastpitch. So I'm having a discussion with someone who is completely ignorant about the game, how it has made the softball game you love today possible, and how many of the top coaches in the game are former World class pitchers and players. We have no common ground and you are soooooo closed minded to it, because of gender, that you won't even give it the time of day. I think that's very sad.

My initial curiosity started to peak when you said your DD preferred female coaches because they can demonstrate. To which I said, there are A LOT of guys who teach pitching who are former pitchers themselves and can demo things too. So that kind of ruins that argument. Had you said, my kid is more comfortable with women, that's the end of discussion because there's no counterpoint to that. I'd say fair enough. Although I'd be curious about how she'd deal with male head coaches, assistant coaches and hitting coaches who also haven't "played the game". But you skirted that question with your own opinions: "I prefer a male HC for the X's and O's". Again I ask, what does this have to do with what YOU prefer?

Anyway, your answers seem to provide even more questions for me and it's clear these opinions seem to be yours, not your DD's. Which is fine too..... you have that right as a parent. Far be it of me to tell anyone how to parent, I have my own issues. But I sure don't put thoughts into my son's head about his swimming career because he competes against boys but has a female for a coach. :)

Bill
 
Apr 28, 2019
1,423
83
Ok, I'll play. Answering your questions:

1. Never.
2. None.
3. Outside of Missouri, none that I'm aware of.
4. When did I say this was "mainstream"? If you want to have a point by point discussion on this topic, I'm more than willing. But please don't put words in my mouth.
5. You seem to be a walking contradiction, you claim you don't see it yet you have no desire to even look for it. Why? What is so threatening to you about men's fastpitch?
6. I am not defensive about anything here MadBandit. I'm asking you questions trying to understand your logic. But your discussion points are contradictory. You have repeatedly said about your own lack of interest in men's fastpitch, your lack of desire to ever see it, etc. Yet this was supposed to be how your DD felt. I think your own opinions on this subject are spilling over to your kid, based off everything you've said. Based on your logic, you'd rather your kid see someone who pitched 10 games at a D3 school rather than take lessons from Mike White (who is on the Mt. Rushmore of all time great pitchers) because he's a man. I'm sorry but that just doesn't make sense to me.
7. NO, my point was not about passion. My point was it's out there if you wanted to see it. You do not want to see it. But please don't tell me it's not in your area when I can tell you it is. It is not the highest level (most likely) but it's still there.
8. You're right that we have no common ground on men's fastpitch. So I'm having a discussion with someone who is completely ignorant about the game, how it has made the softball game you love today possible, and how many of the top coaches in the game are former World class pitchers and players. We have no common ground and you are soooooo closed minded to it, because of gender, that you won't even give it the time of day. I think that's very sad.

My initial curiosity started to peak when you said your DD preferred female coaches because they can demonstrate. To which I said, there are A LOT of guys who teach pitching who are former pitchers themselves and can demo things too. So that kind of ruins that argument. Had you said, my kid is more comfortable with women, that's the end of discussion because there's no counterpoint to that. I'd say fair enough. Although I'd be curious about how she'd deal with male head coaches, assistant coaches and hitting coaches who also haven't "played the game". But you skirted that question with your own opinions: "I prefer a male HC for the X's and O's". Again I ask, what does this have to do with what YOU prefer?

Anyway, your answers seem to provide even more questions for me and it's clear these opinions seem to be yours, not your DD's. Which is fine too..... you have that right as a parent. Far be it of me to tell anyone how to parent, I have my own issues. But I sure don't put thoughts into my son's head about his swimming career because he competes against boys but has a female for a coach. :)

Bill
You asked questions I provided answers. If they weren’t the answers you wanted to hear or expected I don’t know what to tell you.
There is nothing, absolutely nothing posted or talked about in regards to men’s Fastpitch softball in my area. All the local softball leagues are slowpitch or semi-fast.
Again, I’m not knocking men’s Fastpitch. I was just never exposed to it other than knowing about the National teams.
I played baseball & slowpitch because that’s what was available and what I enjoyed.
In large cities like Boston you mentioned there may be a men’s Fastpitch following. In small town USA where I’m from there is nothing. Girls Fastpitch is available but not in large numbers.
My point is you say men’s Fastpitch is out there if you look for it. My question is where? Only at the National level? Because I don’t see it anywhere else.
Anyway, enough time spent on a fruitless subject.
I’m sure your a fine pitching coach and better person. Good luck with your softball endeavors.
 

radness

Possibilities & Opportunities!
Dec 13, 2019
7,270
113
Heres an article on fastpitch tv
History on mens sb.


California has some active mens tourny's.

Years back think it was Blair field in long beach calif. Regularly hosted a mens league.

Long Beach Night Hawks
A few teammates from Long Bch. State softball & i played several times. The men, mostly, were very respectful!
The conversation of how different baseball & fastpitch is was great to hear that was acknowledged!
 
Aug 21, 2008
2,359
113
RAD, Long Beach NightHawks were an all time great team. World champs multiple times and one of the dominant teams in their era. Probably of any era!!

What remains of men's softball in California would be considered very low level. There aren't any Open or "Major" level teams there. Population wise, Cal might have the most teams of any state but the level of those teams is NO WHERE near that of the NightHawks. And I think anyone who actually knows the game of men's softball, the history of it would agree.

What exists today of men's major fastpitch is about a 16 team National championship, compared to 36 teams 30 years ago. The annual World championship used to be 48 teams, with another 96 teams angry they didn't qualify. Now, it's 36 teams at the most, and really only the top 6 teams stand a remote chance of winning. They have the most money so they buy the best players.

MadBandit had asked if there was a pro league. No, not by his definition. However the top teams in North America operate on annual budgets of over $500K per year. Pitchers are making upwards of $5K per weekend (cash, in the hand). NPF players are lucky to get $2000 a month. It may cost a team $20k to have the top ranked player in the world, by the time expenses are done and "salary" is paid. The current World Champs, NY Gremlins (my former team for 5 years) have 1 coach/sponsor from New York and 1 player from New Jersey. Every other players are here for summer months (New Zealand, Australia, Argentina, etc) and the North American guys commute each weekend to the tournament site. The guy from Iowa will fly into the city, as will the guy from Nova Scotia who all play for the same team. The amount of money that is spent is mind boggling for a sport that is in the shadows these days.

Why isn't this on ESPN? Great question. The problem started with the then ISF (now WBSC) who sold out their own sport in lieu of baseball's money. The Olympics wanted baseball OUT of the games because of steroid scandals and MLB'ers won't play in the Olympics. But they funded the WBSC in hopes of keeping baseball in, attached with softball's popularity and the International body of softball sold out their own sport for the almighty dollar. Instead of pushing for men AND women's softball, WBSC took baseball's money, formed their little cabal and now Olympic cities have to build 2 stadiums (baseball and softball) which adds expense. Although USA is probably the only country in the world where the women's participation exceeds the men's in fastpitch softball... Olympic cities could build ONE stadium to play both men's and women's softball (which would be a popular move to everyone except MadBandit, lol). But instead, countries like Greece and Brazil had to build baseball stadiums that have not been used since Olympics.

The other reason men's softball is not on TV is the lack of corporate sponsors. The lovely ASA does NOTHING to promote their own sport because it is a dying breed but doesn't seem to wanna do much to help it either. And to get on ESPN costs money. Team sponsors would rather spend money on winning their championships than they would getting the game on TV. Getting on ESPN is simply about getting the money for it.

Bill
 
Oct 1, 2014
2,219
113
USA
Bill - thanks for all the info and background on the men's game (not just here in this thread but over the years. We (my DD's) have been very fortunate to work with a number of coaches over the years (and still do) who played Men's Fastpitch. The knowledge and abilities they bring to the coaching table are extremely valuable, whether it's demonstrating a motion, footwork, etc., or throwing a more realistic and challenging BP. Watching the King and his Court never gets old either.

BTW, Bill please lay off the DIII's - not everyone is going DI and that's not a bad thing! ;-)
 
Aug 21, 2008
2,359
113
Woah, when did I knock DIII? Are you talking about the point I was making about which this person rather use a DIII pitcher rather than Mike White? If so, then you completely missed the point I was getting at and it had nothing to do with the DIII level. Ok, substitute DIII with JuCo. Or NAIA. Or even a mid major D1 coach. It didn't matter. That was a gender reference not a DIII reference, I can't believe you took it as a knock to DIII.

I think it's fair to say that any pitching coach with longevity in the game will have students go to all levels of college, D1, 2, 3, JuCo, NAIA, etc. Which is why I find it hysterical when people post where their "student" goes, as if he/she is the reason... Everyone chooses their school for their own reasons. Personally, I've had students who were recruits for D1 programs CHOOSE DII and DIII schools for family reasons, to be close to boyfriends, etc. Does it matter to me? Absolutely not. It's not as though I get a kick back from a school if a student signs there, or I get some kind of recognition (or post recognition myself) if someone chooses Arizona State or Timbucktoo community college. Wherever the kid is happiest and gets her education.

Bill
 
Aug 21, 2008
2,359
113
Heres an article on fastpitch tv
History on mens sb.


California has some active mens tourny's.

Years back think it was Blair field in long beach calif. Regularly hosted a mens league.

Long Beach Night Hawks
A few teammates from Long Bch. State softball & i played several times. The men, mostly, were very respectful!
The conversation of how different baseball & fastpitch is was great to hear that was acknowledged!

It had been bugging me: I'm pretty sure it was Rogers Field in Long Beach!!!! :)
 
Oct 1, 2014
2,219
113
USA
Sorry dude I was just joking around, it was a lame attempt to yank your chain. Another example of where the text doesn't convey the right inflection and the sentiment gets lost in translation, even with the little winkie emoji. I was pretty sure you felt just as you describe above Bill. I respect and admire what you've accomplished and appreciate you even more for being so generous and willing to share the knowledge and experience you've amassed. Carry on please.
 

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