Looking for Scientific Research on Windmill Pitching

[TorontoCFE]

"IF you are properly open from the target at 9:00 with a flexed elbow, palm up creates ZERO added stress......"

DING, DING, DING, DING, DING, DING!!!!

BULL'S EYE!!!

BINGO!!!

IMO, I see that statement as being indisputable--FACT!
.

DD's sports physician would disagree. All movement, especially with a weight, introduces stress.
It may or may not be negligible, but some is there.

The problem is what is the baseline - more stress than doing what?. Moving with a locked joint is obviously wrong but he'd say that it is very easy to introduce career ending stress by very slightly altering movement of any joint. He has no problem with a natural rotation but thinks there is a very fine line.

His group was working on a study of this at one point but the sample sizes become too small when you adjust for
all of the factors in different pitchers to be meaningful.

 

[javasource]

He obviously not comfortable with palm up, so he pulled the "potential injury" card..........Happens all the time.......It's a defense mechanism........

Trust your PC..........Palm up may not fit his teaching style........If he's teaching/stressing elbow flexion, and not teaching a "pushing" motion "palm down", then trust him to build the motion in HIS teaching style..........

I'll tell you this.........IF you are properly open from the target at 9:00 with a flexed elbow, palm up creates ZERO added stress......

So true. There are a couple regular posters on here that pull that card all the time, because parents are vulnerable to anything that uses the word 'safety'... as they should be... but... oy vey...

It's like telling your DD not to bend her knees when jumping...

 

[Doug Romrell]

I would be more interested in what the majority of sports physicians would say in this regard.

Relative to hand cocked back with ball pointed back when arm in at 9:00, there is no doubt in my mind that palm up or up and somewhat toward 3B is much less stress. When I do this, pointing the ball back with hand cocked creates pain in my shoulder. Palm up or up and somewhat toward 3B doesn't create any pain at all in my shoulder.

 

[Doug Romrell]

When you stand in front of a mirror and simply rotate the arm (relaxed, but not overly floppy) around and around in the direction that a pitcher does, letting your hand do what it will, it naturally wants to be mostly palm up in the 9:00 position. It's quite interesting to not that there will also be a slight natural bend in the elbow. Now incorporate a very slight "brush interference" as you continue to rotate your arm.

 

[GatorGirl]

Again, I hope I am not giving the impression that he is teaching to push the ball or bowl. He is just having the ball face more towards first(she is a lefty)than straight up with the idea to evolve to palm up as her arm can handle the stress.

I guess the conclusion is that there is no research to say that any high-level, elite or what have you started at a significantly early age with IR, continued without injury to become a high-level or elite pitcher. We are just assuming they did--which is ok. But too, we are saying the most successful pitchers we see use IR. Again, they may be successful with it at 10 or 12U, but we don't know what kind of injuries they might be prone to as they progress and kids at 16 and 18U, well they may whip now, but did they always?

Again, I am not telling anyone not to do palm up. We are striving for this as we can, but we just aren't pushing it this early based on our PC and pediatricians advice. I don't think we are in it at the level most are so I don't think we will be visiting any specialized doctors since we aren't experiencing any problem.

So, I am sorry I high-jacked this thread, but I guess the conclusion is, there isn't any scientific research at this time. Blah!

 

[Doug Romrell]

GG,

I see having the ball somewhat facing 1B for a left-handed pitcher (3B for right-handed pitcher) as actually being in the same camp as those who say "palm up."

 

[JJsqueeze]

just because something does not have a scientific study to back it does not mean it automatically goes in the heap bin of assumption. Somewhere in between those two extremes there must be room for direct observation, anecdotal evidence, highly likely cause and effect relationships, etc I am a big fan of science but there are other ways to get information, synthesize it and draw a conclusion.

Saying that I/R may cause injuries because there is no science saying it doesn't seems like one of those technically correct but entirely misleading statements. A better statement would be that of the two basic pitching motions commonly taught, it is most likely the safer of the two based on natural body movements and direct experience of some experts.

 

[HOF86]

I was asking if anyone knew of any pitchers that are now into adulthood that started at 8 or 9 with IR out of the gate and continued this and only this through a high-level career?

I wasn't asking for advice and yes I am sticking to what I have. I was just asking if anyone had any research on the above. I knew I would upset a lot of people, but that is ok. I have my big girl panties on today! LOL

I showed him vids of high level pitchers, Jenny and I think Sarah Pauly from the IR thread. I asked him about how children grow with bones growing faster than muscles did he feel there was any problem with this repeated motion over and over again. He expressed some concerns for the "normal" child and said, "Remember, these are high-level atheletes, who are exceptional. To try and have a little kid, who might be an average athlete strive to do what Olympians do, does raise a red flag." Paraphrased

BTW, if it is so "natural" then why would it need to be taught at all? Wouldn't you hand a girl a ball and say throw this to me underhand and that is what would happen?

Again, I am not knocking IR. This is our goal too, PLEASE UNDERSTAND THIS. Our PC just brought up some valid points on injury and I just thought the responsible thing as a parent to do was to investigate it. AND someone brought up the topic of RESEARCH and not just asking for opinion and that is what I am asking also, RESEARCH.

GG

Lol...I was just imagining you in big girl panties GG....LOL!

 

[JJsqueeze]

Lol...I was just imagining you in big girl panties GG....LOL!

Creepy, offensive and totally innocent all at once.

 

[HOF86]

Creepy, offensive and totally innocent all at once.

ohhhh.......