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Dec 1, 2013
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Wooster Mass
Heretic! Get the pitchforks!

I/R is a term and that is all it is. It describes the natural motion of an arm as it goes through the last quarter of a vertical circle, when it is done in a way that will not cause a shoulder to lock up at any point. At the top the arm has to externally rotate to continue and at the bottom it has to internally rotate to continue without locking. Why a pitching coach or a doctor would have an issue with this is beyond me. Palm to the sky is a technique to maximize I/R at release for pitch speed, it is not I/R itself. If the comparison we are making is to a stiff arm rotation with the elbow locked and the inside of the forearm facing the batter during the last quarter of the circle, then hands down, no study needed, this is biomechanically wrong as the elbow simply does not flex that way and you are stressing a joint in a direction that it has no flex.


As for doctors....I always go back to what my doctor buddy says about his colleagues... he calls a bunch of them "007s"- Licensed to kill.



JJ

Im no expert ( yet) but I have been reading about this for 3 years or better when I noticed something very strange on tv during the NCAA world series. These girls don't do what is being taught, I took another look, slo mo this time. Low and behold, arm angle is different, elbow is bent, ball placement is different, follow through, everything, I asked myself, Why is this? Then I stumbled on Phil @ Fastpitch Power, started reading some blogs there. Not so sure Phil has it mastered either but that's another topic. The point is you have to believe.

A little thing I like to do is start with the lock it in drill, Take the students arm ( my dd) tell her to relax and do not pronate the forearm or resist for any reason. Then I take her arm and lightly swing it with my power, not hers and imitate a pitch. The action to absolute T mimmicks what BM teaches in his IR sticky. NATURALLY. Im no bio blah blah or several other words I cant even spell but this tells me that this is what the arm does NATURALLY. Now I know its true because my DD had no idea what I was getting ready to do. I just told her do not resist!
 
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Aug 20, 2013
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I was asking if anyone knew of any pitchers that are now into adulthood that started at 8 or 9 with IR out of the gate and continued this and only this through a high-level career?

I wasn't asking for advice and yes I am sticking to what I have. I was just asking if anyone had any research on the above. I knew I would upset a lot of people, but that is ok. I have my big girl panties on today! LOL

I showed him vids of high level pitchers, Jenny and I think Sarah Pauly from the IR thread. I asked him about how children grow with bones growing faster than muscles did he feel there was any problem with this repeated motion over and over again. He expressed some concerns for the "normal" child and said, "Remember, these are high-level atheletes, who are exceptional. To try and have a little kid, who might be an average athlete strive to do what Olympians do, does raise a red flag." Paraphrased

BTW, if it is so "natural" then why would it need to be taught at all? Wouldn't you hand a girl a ball and say throw this to me underhand and that is what would happen?

Again, I am not knocking IR. This is our goal too, PLEASE UNDERSTAND THIS. Our PC just brought up some valid points on injury and I just thought the responsible thing as a parent to do was to investigate it. AND someone brought up the topic of RESEARCH and not just asking for opinion and that is what I am asking also, RESEARCH.

GG
 
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JJsqueeze

Dad, Husband....legend
Jul 5, 2013
5,436
38
safe in an undisclosed location
I was asking if anyone knew of any pitchers that are now into adulthood that started at 8 or 9 with IR out of the gate and continued this and only this through a high-level career?

I wasn't asking for advice and yes I am sticking to what I have. I was just asking if anyone had any research on the above. I knew I would upset a lot of people, but that is ok. I have my big girl panties on today! LOL

Yes I know of a few- Every high level pitcher. IT IS HOW YOU THROW UNDERHAND CORRECTLY! I take video of 10-12U pitchers all the time, and guess what? All of the decent ones use I/R, some a lot, some less. ALL OF THEM! Even the ones who's dads demo H/E when we talk pitching coach techniques. THEY ALL DO IT! just like all good runners lean forward. It is just how you do it right. Regardless of their training they do it right naturally.

Really this is not a matter of philosophy, theory, technique, terminology, it is simple right and wrong. there is a lot of room in pitching for style and differences, but this is a core motion. Treating it as a philosophy on par with a stiff elbow H/E style, is like saying that a running coach teaches that the legs should be stiff during sprinting and the knee should not bend and that is a competing philosophy to running with a bend in the knee.

Try it, get video of every pitcher you can and just observe what you see. Then use the video when you discuss it with a doc or a PC, a picture is worth a thousand words.
 
Jul 14, 2008
1,800
63
He is working with the ball towards 1st base most of the pitch(she is a lefty) and says as she grows and gets stronger it will evolve to more palm to the sky.

He obviously not comfortable with palm up, so he pulled the "potential injury" card..........Happens all the time.......It's a defense mechanism........

Trust your PC..........Palm up may not fit his teaching style........If he's teaching/stressing elbow flexion, and not teaching a "pushing" motion "palm down", then trust him to build the motion in HIS teaching style..........

I'll tell you this.........IF you are properly open from the target at 9:00 with a flexed elbow, palm up creates ZERO added stress......
 
Jun 18, 2012
3,183
48
Utah
"IF you are properly open from the target at 9:00 with a flexed elbow, palm up creates ZERO added stress......"

DING, DING, DING, DING, DING, DING!!!!

BULL'S EYE!!!

BINGO!!!

IMO, I see that statement as being indisputable--FACT!

Fifteen years ago, when my older daughter was 14, while she did learn open style pitching, she used palm out/down away from body into release. I'm convinced it is what messed up both her elbow and shoulder as it did add a great deal of stress to both. The three pitchers I work with now (including DD) all have palm up at 9:00 and none of them have pain in elbow or shoulder.

Further, I would argue that palm up actually reduces the stress in the elbow and shoulder from what it would be otherwise.
 
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Aug 20, 2013
558
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Actually I feel he is totally is comfortable with it. I have seen his much larger and older students throw with amazing IR--including his daughter. He is just concerned with the littler ones. He has one 10 1/2 year old girl who is HUGE and her IR is amazing. I thought she was 14. But thank you BM for not blasting me and trying to actually understand what I am asking and saying. Your wisdom is obvious.

JJ--who are the elite pitchers that you know for absolute certain that started with IR, are an elite pitcher and have had no injuries? Again, I am serious, I want to research this too. But they could be the ones that were built like Olympians from the beginning. Note the 10 1/2 year old that was as big as me really. I am 5' 7" and at 170. My DD is only 4' about 75 pounds.

Respectfully,
GG
 

JJsqueeze

Dad, Husband....legend
Jul 5, 2013
5,436
38
safe in an undisclosed location
JJ--who are the elite pitchers that you know for absolute certain that started with IR, are an elite pitcher and have had no injuries?

if the threshold for decision making is ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY then count me out. That term rarely factors into my thinking. I am more of a 90% certainty guy. I find that last 10% is never worth the effort in gathering information for a decision. I can clean up the 1 in 10 mistakes faster than I can get to 100% on 10 decisions.


So that being said, this information is not available as far as I know, when I first got into this mess I tried to get research, backstories on pitchers etc, and came up empty. I wish softball were bigger and the knowledge out there was more readily available, but it is not so we parents are left with having to apply our own decision making and navigate the road with the resources available. here is the logic I used.

1) All high level pitchers demonstrate this motion from all of the video I have seen- not one stiff arm HE style delivery- It may still be out there but with every click of my slow motion button it gets less likely as the sample size grows and grows.
2) All young good pitchers I see demonstrate this motion-by good I mean girls that are throwing at or above the average speed. Many slower pitchers do use a stiff H/E style but they get murdered and are never the number 1 on a team.
3) It is very hard to switch mechanics in the middle of development- Personal experience from coaching\life etc.
4) Top level instructors teach with this type of motion- RP-HILLHOUSE-BM

Conclusion- It is highly likely that at least most of the high level pitchers have been doing this from a very young age with only tweaks and refinements along the way.

Unfortunately we live in a world sadly lacking in absolutes and have to make our own decisions along the way. I am very comfortable with taking some basic solid information and drawing conclusions like this and running with the conclusion that has a high probability of being right, others like to get to 100% and then decide. I respect that (but I usually beat them because I am quicker on the draw :))
 
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Feb 3, 2010
5,752
113
Pac NW
JJ--who are the elite pitchers that you know for absolute certain that started with IR, are an elite pitcher and have had no injuries?
Without a very specialized study (what you're asking for,) this is impossible to answer. Overuse is likely the biggest factor leading to injury. I'd bet it is more of an issue than whether or not someone uses correct, or optimum mechanics.

The other issue is a study to determine the health risks of muscling the ball vs whipping it is almost impossible because so few pitchers rely on brute strength for speed. They eventually get passed up by the kids who either naturally figured out whip, or were taught it.

Earlier someone asked why everyone doesn't naturally whip. Why can't everyone throw a ball, swing a bat, or run in the most efficient manner? Some are born with it. When I said whip is natural, I think I mis-spoke. However, when someone feels whip for the first time, they must wonder why something so effortless isn't more natural! Just like everyone isn't a born thrower, hitter, runner or whatever, we can facilitate improvement by teaching them the mechanics to make it easier. That's why I can't fathom why we'd teach a kid to muscle or force something that could be done with much less effort and strain.

I really hope a good study comes out someday soon. The myths and mis-information would take a hit and hopefully the word would spread a little faster. Heck, with all the updated info about dynamic warm ups, why do we still hear coaches preach that their athletes need to start with static stretches before anything else to minimize injury? We'll get there...
 
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