Looking for Scientific Research on Windmill Pitching

[fishteach]

Hi All,

I'm looking for some scientific research that compares different windmill techniques. I'm trained as a biologist, so I'm a big fan of the science of something. My daughter is 9, and has been pitching for about 18 months. When she started I knew nothing about windmill pitching, so we signed up for a clinic at a local place. My daughter & I both liked the instructor, so we kept going for a year. We've both learned a lot since then, and due to life circumstances, we had to find a new pitching coach. Our pursuit led us to someone that again, we both liked. The new coach teaches what I guess is called the IR technique (loose bent elbow leading a whipping arm movement through open hips) verses what we originally learned, which was more of a straight arm, locked elbow & pitch around your hip kind of style. I have read a ton of the forum discussions, watched a lot of YouTube videos and read a lot of scientific research on the biomechanics and kinetics of windmill pitching. I understand the biomechanics of each of these styles, but have been unsuccessful in finding any scientific, or empirical research, that specifically compares these two techniques, and really addresses the differences and the claims of both. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

 

[starsnuffer]

There really isn't any. However, no one ever actually pitched successfully with the straight arm, locked elbow, pitch around your hip motion. There is no video evidence of any pitcher at high levels pitching like this. There is only evidence of people teaching this to kids. It's the same way many of us were taught to keep our elbows high and squish the bug when we were taught to hit baseballs playing little league in the 70's and 80's. The MLB players never actually hit like this, it just appeared that they might because all we saw was stance and follow through, and when the players themselves were asked the parroted what their coaches told them.

-W

 

[Ken B]

Sounds like a great science project for you and your daughter. Pitch both ways 10-20 times and compare the data. Video tape to ensure a locked elbow, wrist snap and all that. I'd like to try something like this as well. I'll post the results if we can get to it.

 

[dadonachair]

Sports science Jenny Finch on youtube. It might be a start.

FSN Sport Science - Episode 7 - Myths - Jennie Finch - YouTube

 

[GatorGirl]

Since you opened the door on this, I am going to go out on a limb and ask a question. When discussing the IR technique with our instructor, he brought up something I never really thought of. He teaches a whip style but feels at my DD's age and size the palm to the sky to almost the hip is too much pressure on her joints and body right how. He is working with the ball towards 1st base most of the pitch(she is a lefty) and says as she grows and gets stronger it will evolve to more palm to the sky.

I whined about all the "high level" pitchers out there and he said, well those are adults, they are stronger and have bigger bodies and well, did they start palm to the sky at 9 or say 15 or 16 when they were stronger? I am sure(and it has been said many times before on here) that these ladies teach what they were taught, so that means they learned HE for the most part and evolved to IR. He brought up an increasing number of instances of Tommy John surgery in softball pitchers and he just wasn't comfortable with the little ones putting that sort of stress over and over on her arm.

So I do hope I don't get bashed for posting this, I am only trying to add to the discussion. Not saying one or other is better or judging anyone who is doing IR or teaching it. But I too would be interested in long term research on the effect of pitching IR from say 8 or 9 or even 6 if you have seen Ava on youtube, on pitchers.

Is it safe to say that many high-level pitchers started out with HE, and if they did, do we know when they "evolved" to IR and at what maturation level physically they were at?

PS I did talk to our pediatrician about this also, and while he said he didn't have any specific evidence to site, he felt our PC's point is valid.

GG

 

[GunnerShotgun]

I whined about all the "high level" pitchers out there and he said, well those are adults, they are stronger and have bigger bodies and well, did they start palm to the sky at 9 or say 15 or 16 when they were stronger? I am sure(and it has been said many times before on here) that these ladies teach what they were taught, so that means they learned HE for the most part and evolved to IR. He brought up an increasing number of instances of Tommy John surgery in softball pitchers and he just wasn't comfortable with the little ones putting that sort of stress over and over on her arm.
GG

Teaching a player one technique only to change that technique when they get older is madness. Why not teach them the correct way from the start? What is the magic age when they can start pitching the correct way? Does your pitching instructor have statistics to back up his opinions on stress levels and Tommy John injuries?

Not picking on you GatorGirl, but I am picking on your instructor. That is crazy...

 

[GatorGirl]

He is not teaching a different technique. Just building a foundation. He has about 25 years experience and his daughter just made the USA team, so I don't have a problem sticking with him and our DD pediatrician's advice. Again, we have read time and time again that pitchers can "evolve" into IR. That is what he is going for, nothing is different.

He never claimed to know a magic age, but her brought up some valid points and I took it to a medical doctor who agreed. He said for years, PC's were told that girls arms could take it forever and he is now finding out that this just isn't the case.

I know that we can all have some pretty strong opinions and that is fine, but the OP is asking for facts not opinions. I not saying I have a fact, I just saw an opportunity to pose a question and to provide the information that was provided to my by a PC with 25 years experience and the opinion of a medical doctor. That is all.

GG

 

[JJsqueeze]

Heretic! Get the pitchforks!

I/R is a term and that is all it is. It describes the natural motion of an arm as it goes through the last quarter of a vertical circle, when it is done in a way that will not cause a shoulder to lock up at any point. At the top the arm has to externally rotate to continue and at the bottom it has to internally rotate to continue without locking. Why a pitching coach or a doctor would have an issue with this is beyond me. Palm to the sky is a technique to maximize I/R at release for pitch speed, it is not I/R itself. If the comparison we are making is to a stiff arm rotation with the elbow locked and the inside of the forearm facing the batter during the last quarter of the circle, then hands down, no study needed, this is biomechanically wrong as the elbow simply does not flex that way and you are stressing a joint in a direction that it has no flex.


As for doctors....I always go back to what my doctor buddy says about his colleagues... he calls a bunch of them "007s"- Licensed to kill.

 

[HOF86]

He is not teaching a different technique. Just building a foundation. He has about 25 years experience and his daughter just made the USA team, so I don't have a problem sticking with him and our DD pediatrician's advice. Again, we have read time and time again that pitchers can "evolve" into IR. That is what he is going for, nothing is different.

He never claimed to know a magic age, but her brought up some valid points and I took it to a medical doctor who agreed. He said for years, PC's were told that girls arms could take it forever and he is now finding out that this just isn't the case.

I know that we can all have some pretty strong opinions and that is fine, but the OP is asking for facts not opinions. I not saying I have a fact, I just saw an opportunity to pose a question and to provide the information that was provided to my by a PC with 25 years experience and the opinion of a medical doctor. That is all.

GG

Then whom are you asking? You got your advice , stick with that? One thing I can tell you is just because a doctor says it doesn't mean it is true, and without getting to personal I wish I knew this 2 years ago!.

 

[Ken B]

GG,
How was the info presented to the Dr? Did you ask about starting palm up, allowing I/R, or pushing the ball? This is confusing as whip with full I/R is the most natural and effortless way to pitch a ball--that's why we teach it and why about any kid with any success uses it.

Using elbow whip, the closer one gets to palm down, the more the muscles are needed to get the same speed. The bowling/wrist snap method would require the most exertion and would seem to put the most stress on the body to get speed. I can understand your PC's opinion, but the Dr., given the option of forcing a pitch or whipping it... Just seems like the Doc would go with whip?