Lookback rule question

[badmonkey]

Had a girl called out for lookback rule this past weekend. Had a discussion with the umpire, and he didn't see it my way. I disagreed with the call, but he may well be correct, as I don't know the rule inside and out.

SItuation: 14C USA/ASA
Runner on second
Batter walks on passed ball
Runner advances to third
I tell batter/runner to go to second to try to draw the throw and score the runner at third
Runner rounds first as the pitcher receives the ball one step in front of the circle, and moves directly to the circle.
Runner chickens out and tries to stop and return to 1B
When she tries to stop, she stumbles and goes to a knee and both hands are touching the ground. It takes 1-2 seconds for her to recover and return to the base.

She did stop movement in the baseline, however her intent was to stop and immediately return to the base.

In the end she did not draw a throw to advance the other runner, and she was called out on the lookback rule. I guess the question is "does intent matter" or is she out no matter the intent.

This is a very green team, and I am a very green coach. The girls were very confused, and I told them I would explain at practice. My current thought is that the ump made the wrong call, but I certainly understand why the call was made.

Set me straight DFP.

 

[wheresmycar]

She stopped for "1-2 seconds"? That's an out. Umpires cannot know intent... If it was a legit stumble, the umps might give a C level team a break... or they might not...

 

[Strike2]

One of those "had to be there". Although rarer in 14U and above, some teams will try all sorts of weird bush-league stunts to gain an advantage. I'm not saying that's what you were doing, but who knows what that umpire's experience is with this. When the pitcher enters the circle, a player off the bag can change direction once, but they can't stop after that.

 

[mmeece]

Sounds like the correct call without seeing it. She gets the opportunity to stop once and make an immediate decision to continue or go back. I'm assuming the interpretation was that she delayed after stopping. Probably wasn't her intent but it really doesn't matter.

 

[marriard]

So assuming it happens EXACTLY as you described:

Technically it could be called an out. 'Intent' is not part of the call and she stopped and it absolutely could be considered that she didn't immediately return.

Would I call it in this situation? I'd have to be there - but probably not. You said she fell over on her change of direction - so as long as she recovers as quickly as she can and heads back to the bag when she gets up I am probably leaving it alone. It says she has one change of direction and must immediately return to her base but it doesn't say how she has to go back, or how long she gets to go back, or how graceful it needs to be. She didn't exactly hesitate on her return which is the normal LBR violation - she fell over. I am not actively looking to call cheap 'gotcha' outs.

I like the Look Back Rule because it stops a lot of time-wasting BS so it is a great deterrent and it helps the game flow. But actually calling it - EXTREMELY rare.

 

[badmonkey]

One of those "had to be there". Although rarer in 14U and above, some teams will try all sorts of weird bush-league stunts to gain an advantage. I'm not saying that's what you were doing, but who knows what that umpire's experience is with this. When the pitcher enters the circle, a player off the bag can change direction once, but they can't stop after that.

If you saw our team play, you'd know that we are not sophisticated enough to pull off that ruse.

Makes a lot of sense in that the rules need to be applied objectively so that coaches/players can't game the system by intentionally falling down in the base path to draw a throw.

This all helps me understand the rule, and helps drive home a point that we've been working on with regard to "if the coach says go, you go." Better to be out at 2nd with a run in, than out at first with no advance. Our team right now is making about 1/3 of our outs on the base paths. I've got a lot of work to do to help the girls improve there, and I need to know the rules to be able to do that.

 

[Top_Notch]

Don't think for a minute that players don't fake falling down though. I caught this watching two high level teams go after each other. Watch the first base runner. She did this multiple times. Catcher did not buy it, though.

 

[Strike2]

If you saw our team play, you'd know that we are not sophisticated enough to pull off that ruse.

Makes a lot of sense in that the rules need to be applied objectively so that coaches/players can't game the system by intentionally falling down in the base path to draw a throw.

This all helps me understand the rule, and helps drive home a point that we've been working on with regard to "if the coach says go, you go." Better to be out at 2nd with a run in, than out at first with no advance. Our team right now is making about 1/3 of our outs on the base paths. I've got a lot of work to do to help the girls improve there, and I need to know the rules to be able to do that.

It's not a bad strategy. Few, if any 14C teams have the ability to defend against that. Have your quicker runners sprint to 1B and then JOG to 2B while watching the ball. If the pitcher makes any motion to throw (ie pump fake), LBR is off and your runner can move off 3B momentarily...move her back if the pitcher goes back to just holding the ball. What you're looking for here isn't a play at 2B, but an extended run-down play between 2B and 1B. If you can get the other team throwing the ball around, you'll not only score, but your runner could easily end up on 3B before it's over. Equally likely is that there's no throw at all and you end up with runners on 2nd and 3rd. With slower runners, it's an easier out that you don't necessarily have to give up. Wild pitches and passed balls are common with 14C...I wouldn't trade an out for a run then unless it's decisive.

However, this gets tougher as you get older and/or play better competition. If you try this with DD's team, you might lose both runners!

 

[bmakj]

This all helps me understand the rule, and helps drive home a point that we've been working on with regard to "if the coach says go, you go." Better to be out at 2nd with a run in, than out at first with no advance. Our team right now is making about 1/3 of our outs on the base paths. I've got a lot of work to do to help the girls improve there, and I need to know the rules to be able to do that.

try telling them (and be certain to back it up) that if they go when told, do not hesitiate, and are thrown out, it is the coaches fault, not theirs, and then when it happens in game, loudly tell them (and parents and rest of team) "My fault suzy, great job listening".

now getting them to understand in the situation you describe, that if they see throw is made, they need to keep running towards the tag (to make defense keep ball at 2B in order for runner to score), that is even harder to get across.

 

[badmonkey]

try telling them (and be certain to back it up) that if they go when told, do not hesitiate, and are thrown out, it is the coaches fault, not theirs, and then when it happens in game, loudly tell them (and parents and rest of team) "My fault suzy, great job listening".

now getting them to understand in the situation you describe, that if they see throw is made, they need to keep running towards the tag (to make defense keep ball at 2B in order for runner to score), that is even harder to get across.

We have told them this, and we have ran girls into outs and loudly accepted the blame. I'm dealing with a lot of new players, some rising rec players that are extraordinarily timid base runners. Had some outs on the base paths that will make you pull your hair out, but we're only two tournaments in, and every play is a learning experience right now.