Lions Tigers and Forearm Fire OH MY!

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Aug 21, 2008
2,359
113
I still wish guys like this would go out and pitch in a tournament for himself to try out his "techniques." There's age divisions of play: 45 and over, 50 over, 55 over and even 60 over. I'm not saying he has to tryout for the National team, but I think it'd add a hell of a lot more credibility if he did, especially if he had success with it.
 

radness

Possibilities & Opportunities!
Dec 13, 2019
7,270
113
I still wish guys like this would go out and pitch in a tournament for himself to try out his "techniques." There's age divisions of play: 45 and over, 50 over, 55 over and even 60 over. I'm not saying he has to tryout for the National team, but I think it'd add a hell of a lot more credibility if he did, especially if he had success with it.
Havent really been following this thread...or even to whom Mr.B is speaking...
But
i like the 'go show me' aspect of it! 👍🎉
 
Feb 27, 2019
137
28
It's the same thing, but the snobs here have torn apart Phil.

I have the same conclusion. His methods are his methods and to my understanding he taught his daughter and that's why he is involved in pitching mechanics. I dont know anything about the guy. There are multiple instructional pathways to internal rotation pitching. Pauly, tincher, forearm fire some that just call it IR. All basically the same thing taught with varying methods for the same goal.

As for the hello elbow term, it was not a descriptive term for the antiquated methods used in the past and by some still today to teach pitching mechanics and not a marketing gimmick. Equivalent in my mind of "squish the bug" in batting. High level instruction has left both behind.
 

fanboi22

on the journey
Nov 9, 2015
1,138
83
SE Wisconsin
It's the same thing, but the snobs here have torn apart Phil.
I wouldn't consider myself a snob, but if you researched the history of Phil's forearm fire and how he approached pitching, you would understand that they were definitely NOT the same thing. I think he has morphed some of his teachings as now he sees more the errors of his ways. I have been reading these threads since 2013 or so, and probably have read every single post by the two sides up until a year or so ago. Without all the research, you cannot just say - they are the same thing. I don't think he necessarily needs to acknowledge the changes he made, its just the fact that the origins were not the same. IR has what most call absolutes and that is what differentiated alot of the differences. Phil also didn't have any anatomical knowledge of and couldn't explain why things were happening, just more of a 'feel' type thing. Just like hello elbow, they just felt thats' what they were doing without understanding it was totally backwards. Phil at least had some of the palm directions better than HE. I haven't reviewed alot of what Phil is doing now, so maybe he demonstrates differently, i know his daughter definitely does. Just my two pennies.
 

fanboi22

on the journey
Nov 9, 2015
1,138
83
SE Wisconsin
I have the same conclusion. His methods are his methods and to my understanding he taught his daughter and that's why he is involved in pitching mechanics. I dont know anything about the guy. There are multiple instructional pathways to internal rotation pitching. Pauly, tincher, forearm fire some that just call it IR. All basically the same thing taught with varying methods for the same goal.

As for the hello elbow term, it was not a descriptive term for the antiquated methods used in the past and by some still today to teach pitching mechanics and not a marketing gimmick. Equivalent in my mind of "squish the bug" in batting. High level instruction has left both behind.
It was my understanding as well that Tincher never started talking about the arm or IR. He was more of a fluid dynamics guy where the motion of the lower half pulled the upper thru the pitch. At least that was the experience of a friend 6 or so years ago here in wisconsin with a teacher. Never mentioned the IR movement back then. Again, i assume things have changed and they realize thru the Hanson Principle what is really happening.
 
Aug 21, 2008
2,359
113
I'd throw Mr Tincher into what I'm saying too. If they have a new, revolutionary way to pitch that they believe they created, I'd like to see them actually do it in a game. And to be clear, I've never met either of these guys. I have nothing personal against either one. But, they have catchy phrases and sometimes even lead people to believe their techniques are proprietary. Lets see them do it. Why won't they? They clearly love the game of softball, love pitching, love teaching it. Why not participate, it will certainly validate all their "techniques" if they are successful. Assuming they actually use those techniques when they pitch, instead of just thinking they do like some Hello Elbow people who don't pitch the way they claim.

Boardmember is widely considered the person who brought the phrase "IR" into so many readers of this forum's vocabulary. But, he didn't invent it. And he never claimed he invented it. Moreover, he actually pitched at a very high level in his own career in California. So he accurately described what he actually did when he threw.

Like BM, I didn't invent anything in pitching either. It's been around a lot longer than either of us. And while I never used the phrase or words "IR" in my coaching, I have been been vehemently screaming about Hello Elbow for 20 years on the internet. And I'm sure I wasn't the only one.

@Filterbing keep in mind, Doug Finch is considered by many to be his daughter's teacher too. She pitches nothing like they present at their clinics, which I've been told are more about getting to take a picture with Jennie and her medals. I guess she does do a pitching demo, but again, when she throws hard, she's not doing the Hello Elbow techniques. Again, this isn't personal, I like Jennie. She's a very nice person. But, if the stuff she and her father preach about pitching actually worked, she wouldn't have changed how she actually pitched in games.
 
Feb 15, 2017
920
63
I'd throw Mr Tincher into what I'm saying too. If they have a new, revolutionary way to pitch that they believe they created, I'd like to see them actually do it in a game. And to be clear, I've never met either of these guys. I have nothing personal against either one. But, they have catchy phrases and sometimes even lead people to believe their techniques are proprietary. Lets see them do it. Why won't they? They clearly love the game of softball, love pitching, love teaching it. Why not participate, it will certainly validate all their "techniques" if they are successful. Assuming they actually use those techniques when they pitch, instead of just thinking they do like some Hello Elbow people who don't pitch the way they claim.

Boardmember is widely considered the person who brought the phrase "IR" into so many readers of this forum's vocabulary. But, he didn't invent it. And he never claimed he invented it. Moreover, he actually pitched at a very high level in his own career in California. So he accurately described what he actually did when he threw.

Like BM, I didn't invent anything in pitching either. It's been around a lot longer than either of us. And while I never used the phrase or words "IR" in my coaching, I have been been vehemently screaming about Hello Elbow for 20 years on the internet. And I'm sure I wasn't the only one.

@Filterbing keep in mind, Doug Finch is considered by many to be his daughter's teacher too. She pitches nothing like they present at their clinics, which I've been told are more about getting to take a picture with Jennie and her medals. I guess she does do a pitching demo, but again, when she throws hard, she's not doing the Hello Elbow techniques. Again, this isn't personal, I like Jennie. She's a very nice person. But, if the stuff she and her father preach about pitching actually worked, she wouldn't have changed how she actually pitched in games.
People are flocking to Montana Fouts's dad now as he was her pitching coach. I hope they realize that he can't give them the muscle fiber and long arms to pitch with the velocity she has. Both tbe rise and dropball have been additions to her arsenal since she came to Bama.



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Aug 21, 2008
2,359
113
People are flocking to Montana Fouts's dad now as he was her pitching coach. I hope they realize that he can't give them the muscle fiber and long arms to pitch with the velocity she has. Both tbe rise and dropball have been additions to her arsenal since she came to Bama.



Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk

I've never met either of them. But I've heard stories about her dad, not 3rd hand stories from someone's 2nd cousin's uncle's girlfriend's niece. It's my understanding he truly fancies himself as an expert and even tried to leverage him being a team pitching coach (club, not college) in order to get his daughter. In other words: "let me be the pitching coach and she will come pitch for you". One organization I know of national prominence politely declined.

This isn't any different than many of the Olympians who's father's go on the speaking circuit and become clinicians.
 
Feb 3, 2010
5,752
113
Pac NW
IR and FF are only similar from 12 to about 8 o’clock. The upper arm pulls the lower arm and ball down the backside of the circle in a lagged/flexed position. This is where the differences start.

In FF, the elbow extends and the wrist snaps, like a karate chop. Brush trigger is not possible.

In IR, the forearm maintains flexion as the humerus rotates. The forearm is free to brush/wrap/roll around the thigh, triggering release.

 

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