LBR in effect with entire infield is in pitcher's circle celebrating a strike out?

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Jan 22, 2011
1,179
83
NFHS rules, CCS playoffs, DD's team down 2 late in the game. DD at 1B. No outs.

I'll post video when available on a different thread.

Batter strikes out, infield runs into the circle, does the celebration thing. Same thing happened in a 12u rec game I umpired last Thursday, but runner on 3B. I was shocked the catcher didn't call time and ran out to celebrate. After hearing my DD's reasoning why, she didn't run to 2B, I'm glad it didn't happen in my game.

1) She wasn't sure if multiple people are in the circle and someone besides the pitcher holding ball, is LBR in affect?

2) Related, but not directly, on cut setups where 1B is hanging out in pitcher's circle, is the LBR in affect as soon as the 1B has the ball, or must it be the pitcher?

3) If the LBR was momentarily off when the players were tossing the ball around in the circle, my DD didn't want to give the umpire an excuse to call the LBR.

The ruling on these?

3B coach wasn't happy my DD didn't go.
 
Last edited:
Jan 11, 2015
77
18
If the pitcher has the ball in the circle, the runners cant leave the base. So if the runner is standing on the base and the SS and 2nd run into the circle to slap hands with everyone, the runner should be called out once they try to run for 2nd.

But if the pitcher tosses the ball to the other players then the runner my leave the base once the pitcher doesnt have the ball. Could be a gamble if the umpires arent too sharp as it could be hard to see if everyone is close together in a small circle. They could just default and say they think the pitcher had it and call the runner out afterwards.

For #2 Yes it must be the pitcher

For #3 Yes that could be a reason to play it safe as she doesnt know what could happen if the umpires know the rules exactly.

Last week on a playoff game the pitcher for one team was constantly walking out the back of the circle after she would catch the ball. The other team finally noticed late in the game. Think it was the 5th inning. The runner on second was looking at the pitcher and was signalling to the head coach if she should run and it was obvious as i could hear them all in the 3rd base dugout as I was talking about it as i was U3 in a 3 man system. They were saying, do you think the umpire knows? Is he watching her? The defense had finally call time to take a conference with the pitcher and the runner went to the head coach in the 3rd base box and asked me about it hahaha. She said if i noticed what the picture was doing and I told her I have one job every pitch and thats to watch the pitcher. She actually made it clear she wasnt entirely sure when she could run or not because she didnt know the actually rule about how many feet and if they had to be completely out or not.

The whole time I am thinking, damn I noticed she was walking out the circle on the first couple of pitches. How come it took yall 5 innings to realize you could of had free bases lol.

Cant wait to see the video and exactly what happened
 
Jan 22, 2011
1,179
83
Thank you! Will look later, but if you have rule references, that would be great!
 
Last edited:
Jul 22, 2015
728
93
NFHS rules, CCS playoffs, DD's team down 2 late in the game. DD at 1B. No outs.

I'll post video when available on a different thread.

Batter strikes out, infield runs into the circle, does the celebration thing. Same thing happened in a 12u rec game I umpired last Thursday, but runner on 3B. I was shocked the catcher didn't call time and ran out to celebrate. After hearing my DD's reasoning why, she didn't run to 2B, I'm glad it didn't happen in my game.

1) She wasn't sure if multiple people are in the circle and someone besides the pitcher holding ball, is LBR in affect?

2) Related, but not directly, on cut setups where 1B is hanging out in pitcher's circle, is the LBR in affect as soon as the 1B has the ball, or must it be the pitcher?

3) If the LBR was momentarily off when the players were tossing the ball around in the circle, my DD didn't want to give the umpire an excuse to call the LBR.

The ruling on these?

3B coach wasn't happy my DD didn't go.
If the P has control of the ball in the circle then LBR is in effect. Has to be the P, she has to be in control of the ball, and (not asked here, but) she can't be making a play on a runner. Keep in mind that if the runner is continuing to move towards the next base (even slowly) as the ball enters the circle then she would still have the right to advance.
Side note…There is a pretty infamous trick play involving this type of scenario to win a playoff game (Georgia I think?). Runners on 1B and 3B, 2 outs. Catcher receives a pitch, returns it to the P, turns back to the umpire (actually asks him NOT to call time out), and runs out to the circle. Both runners returned to their bases, and an infielder and/or coach yells to the C that she didn't call time, get back home. She acts like she doesn't understand and they keep yelling. At some point the runner at 3B comes off the base and thinks about running home, is called out on LBR to end the game.
 
Jan 25, 2022
139
28
There's a rule in there about being allowed to step off while the pitcher has the call in the circle IF the pitcher is attempting to make a play with the ball or feigning an attempt (pump fake, possibly a bluff charge) on a play on a runner. That may be applicable if the ball is being tossed. Who is to say where that ball was intended to be tossed, regardless of who caught it?

Might be worth a thought. I dunno. Back during the season, we had a team coming to our place that had done a lot of 3rd base leading in that oh so annoying fashion, and I was trying to devise a scheme to bait the runner into leaving by stepping out and doing a pump fake, then taking one step back into the circle while getting the ball back in the glove. Something like that.
 
Nov 26, 2010
4,613
113
Michigan
There's a rule in there about being allowed to step off while the pitcher has the call in the circle IF the pitcher is attempting to make a play with the ball or feigning an attempt (pump fake, possibly a bluff charge) on a play on a runner. That may be applicable if the ball is being tossed. Who is to say where that ball was intended to be tossed, regardless of who caught it?

Might be worth a thought. I dunno. Back during the season, we had a team coming to our place that had done a lot of 3rd base leading in that oh so annoying fashion, and I was trying to devise a scheme to bait the runner into leaving by stepping out and doing a pump fake, then taking one step back into the circle while getting the ball back in the glove. Something like that.
No need to make up a scenario. The pitcher must have control of the ball. Once she tosses it to another player the LBR is off

As to your scheme. Once the pitcher leaves the circle or starts pump faking the runner on third can leave the base. Once the pitcher stops doing that stupid stuff and returns to the circle with the ball the runner can then Either go home or return to third.
 
May 15, 2008
1,377
113
Cape Cod Mass.
If you're in a situation where you don't know the rule, like the pitcher walking out of the circle, go talk discreetly to the umpire. I looked this up and I believe if the pitcher has one foot entirely out of the circle the runner can go. Talking to the ump will also let him/her know you are planning on taking advantage of it.
 
Jan 22, 2011
1,179
83
It happened mostly the way I remembered it. Looking at it closely, my DD mostly handled it correct. The ball was thrown back to pitcher, pitcher was ready to fire the ball to 1B if there was a play. 2B stayed half in-between 1B and 2B in case DD tried something. SS stayed in the vicinity of 2B until my DD was on 1B.

I don't see any play for my DD to make it to 2B.

Slight quibble is she should of waited a hair longer before turning her back on pitcher, but there is no way ball gets away from pitcher.


Only got 2 hours sleep last night agonizing if there was anything my DD could have done different to pull out a win.

My wife says I am obsessing, and I should let it go, enjoy the summer ball, and once finals are over my DD can try to organize some summer workouts during open gym.

Wait to next year!

 
Last edited:
Jan 11, 2015
77
18
It happened mostly the way I remembered it. Looking at it closely, my DD mostly handled it correct. The ball was thrown back to pitcher, pitcher was ready to fire the ball to 1B if there was a play. 2B stayed half in-between 1B and 2B in case DD tried something. SS stayed in the vicinity of 2B until my DD was on 1B.

I don't see any play for my DD to make it to 2B.

Slight quibble is she should of waited a hair longer before turning her back on pitcher, but there is no way ball gets away from pitcher.


Only got 2 hours sleep last night agonizing if there was anything my DD could have done different to pull out a win.

My wife says I am obsessing, and I should let it go, enjoy the summer ball, and once finals are over my DD can try to organize some summer workouts during open gym.

Wait to next year!

Yeah from watching it looks like the coach is telling her to run once she is already standing on the base. The SS runs in to slap hands after the pitcher has the ball in the circle and your daughter is already back standing on the base.

I guess the coach just saw no one near 2nd and was trying to get her to run. Maybe he doesn't know the rules either lol. Could be he got caught up in the moment?

Basically if she would have taken off the correct call would be a Look Back violation. This is exactly what the rule is in place for, to stop runners from advancing when the picture has the ball in the circle.
 
Jan 25, 2022
139
28
No need to make up a scenario. The pitcher must have control of the ball. Once she tosses it to another player the LBR is off

As to your scheme. Once the pitcher leaves the circle or starts pump faking the runner on third can leave the base. Once the pitcher stops doing that stupid stuff and returns to the circle with the ball the runner can then Either go home or return to third.
Yeah I explained it poorly and now I can't remember exactly what the plan was. The whole point was to get her to run back toward third then back toward home again in violation of the rule, using a pump fake and positioning just outside the circle that would allow very slight foot movement the runner wouldn't notice. It was a great scheme (in my mind) at the time, but my kid was busy enough just trying to throw strikes and remember when to cover home. Most of the girls don't even know what the LBR is--they just know they need to get back in the circle. They still had game basics to learn at that point.
 

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