Ivy question

[MNDad]

While looking into this I discovered I was dead wrong about what a Computer Scientist actually is. I’ve always thought any computer related field fell under computer science. I had no idea a computer scientist and software engineer were two entirely different things. It was actually kind of funny reading the comments below the articles seeing both sides claim superiority over the other. Picture Sheldon putting Howard in his place over just being an engineer.

I still think stereotypes and discrimination are the main reasons we don’t have more women in STEM fields. Not so much blatant discrimination, but attitudes that women and minorities don’t have to work as hard as men is a roundabout way of saying they’re not as smart or capable. When parents or role models espouse those beliefs its natural some children are going to look into other careers. I know CS is a difficult major, but women are going into other fields that are far more rigorous. Following this thread got me thinking what’s so different about CS? Come to find CS majors in general are way down. As other stem fields have been growing, CS numbers have actually declined. According to Loyola University a recent survey found that just 1 in 75 college students planned to major in computer science, down from 1 in 30 in year 2000. I think part of it is so many new careers in the STEM fields are just giving students more options and computer scientists have the stereotype of “just programmers”.

I find the twist this thread has taken very interesting. I think the important thing is that our daughters are taught they can do anything just as well as a boy or even better.

 

[vicimus]

On the contrary. We have always challenged her from day 1, which is why she started school a year early, and has succeeded ever since. Also, why she's been to six summer coding camps from the time she was ten.

She knows that if she follows my prescribed path, she will graduate with a starting salary in the $80k-$100k range which got her attention; otherwise, she knows that if she wants to take the *easy road* and be an art history major or play her saxophone for a living, then that's on her; I'm not wasting my hard earned money on a useless college major. I had multiple scholarships, grants, loans, and jobs to get me through college. The choice is hers. ;-)

Are you trying to set your DD up for failure or talk her out of being a CS major? lol!

 

[vicimus]

Your *Big Bang Theory* analogy is spot on; however, both professions require a *real* computer science degree that includes lots of math and not the easier computing majors (e.g. information systems management) tht have a lot less math. Back in the day, those *lesser* majors were the ones that got a C or below in CS101. ;-)

It's my 32+ years of computer science experience, the only stereotypes I've seen were the anti-geek stereotypes which no longer exist, since geeks rule the world. And, discrimination was non-existent to the point where they bend over backwards to get women and minorities in computer science, thanks to quotas and financial incentives. Not to mention the lowering of the bar in both K-12 and higher education in general to the extent that many colleges including Wake Forest, Loyola of Maryland, etc. don't even *require* an SAT/ACT for *the sake of socio-economic diversity*. Really!? Don't charge $50k-$60k per year to attend your college and you'll achieve that goal w/o lowering the bar and setting less qualified students up for failure as proven by drop-out rates.

IMHO, the main reason why there are less computer science majors is due to all the math and workload. Unfortunately, the majority of people (both males and females) want to take the easy/fun path in college. Back in the day (before everyone had a home computer), we computer science majors (at Loyola) were pulling all-nighters in the computer lab while the business and marketing majors were out partying. Not much has changed since, other than more people want to party instead of work.

Speaking of STEM careers, the last time I saw the official government numbers, jobs in computing (software engineers, computer scientists, coders, etc.) represented 72%+ of all STEM job openings now and projected 20 years in the future! Consequently, EVERYONE should be learning to code, and guiding their daughters to the best ROI college major--computer science. ;-)

And, YES! EVERYONE can #LearnToCode at least!

While looking into this I discovered I was dead wrong about what a Computer Scientist actually is. I’ve always thought any computer related field fell under computer science. I had no idea a computer scientist and software engineer were two entirely different things. It was actually kind of funny reading the comments below the articles seeing both sides claim superiority over the other. Picture Sheldon putting Howard in his place over just being an engineer.

I still think stereotypes and discrimination are the main reasons we don’t have more women in STEM fields. Not so much blatant discrimination, but attitudes that women and minorities don’t have to work as hard as men is a roundabout way of saying they’re not as smart or capable. When parents or role models espouse those beliefs its natural some children are going to look into other careers. I know CS is a difficult major, but women are going into other fields that are far more rigorous. Following this thread got me thinking what’s so different about CS? Come to find CS majors in general are way down. As other stem fields have been growing, CS numbers have actually declined. According to Loyola University a recent survey found that just 1 in 75 college students planned to major in computer science, down from 1 in 30 in year 2000. I think part of it is so many new careers in the STEM fields are just giving students more options and computer scientists have the stereotype of “just programmers”.

I find the twist this thread has taken very interesting. I think the important thing is that our daughters are taught they can do anything just as well as a boy or even better.

 

[corlay]

Speaking of demands of CS major... https://medium.com/girls-who-code/g...ollege-introducing-college-loops-a1ff49d3cf7f

"Upon entering college, only one in 17 women will plan on majoring in engineering or computing — compared to one in five men. Along the way, roughly 40 percent of women computer science majors will switch majors or fail to get a degree. By the time graduation rolls around, only 4 percent of college women will leave campus with computer science degrees."

The flip side of this, is if your DD wishes to pursue a STEM degree,
she will have an easier time passing admissions than your DS.

Most top universities strive for student body M/F equity,
and in a STEM program your DD will have WAY less female competition for admission than your DS male competition.

My DS is a freshman STEM major (Mech Engineering),
and when applying to university,
we all learned that stellar grades, scores, rank, etc only gets you in consideration.
But top colleges get WAY more applicants that meet admissions standards than they can feasibly accept.
I think MIT only accepts 1/7 of qualified applicants; and by "qualified" we are talking the top 99 percentile.
A female applicant to a STEM program has sheer competition numbers on her side, in comparison.

 

[vicimus]

EXACTLY! I've told my DD that all she has to do is get the degree, and she won't have to work half as hard as I had to all these years, since they are bending over backwards to get and keep women and minorities in computing. There are quotas to be filled with financial incentives to do so.

FWIW, even 10+ years ago I worked with a female colleague whose son got straight As, was captain of the varsity football and lacrosse teams, got 1300+ on SAT, and wanted to go to West Point; he applied and was not accepted, since he was told there were far more female slots to fill due to their quota this year.

It's a #BraveNewWorld. ;-)

The flip side of this, is if your DD wishes to pursue a STEM degree,
she will have an easier time passing admissions than your DS.

Most top universities strive for student body M/F equity,
and in a STEM program your DD will have WAY less female competition for admission than your DS male competition.

My DS is a freshman STEM major (Mech Engineering),
and when applying to university,
we all learned that stellar grades, scores, rank, etc only gets you in consideration.
But top colleges get WAY more applicants that meet admissions standards than they can feasibly accept.
I think MIT only accepts 1/7 of qualified applicants; and by "qualified" we are talking the top 99 percentile.
A female applicant to a STEM program has sheer competition numbers on her side, in comparison.

 

[MNDad]

Your *Big Bang Theory* analogy is spot on; however, both professions require a *real* computer science degree that includes lots of math and not the easier computing majors (e.g. information systems management) tht have a lot less math. Back in the day, those *lesser* majors were the ones that got a C or below in CS101. ;-)

It's my 32+ years of computer science experience, the only stereotypes I've seen were the anti-geek stereotypes which no longer exist, since geeks rule the world. And, discrimination was non-existent to the point where they bend over backwards to get women and minorities in computer science, thanks to quotas and financial incentives. Not to mention the lowering of the bar in both K-12 and higher education in general to the extent that many colleges including Wake Forest, Loyola of Maryland, etc. don't even *require* an SAT/ACT for *the sake of socio-economic diversity*. Really!? Don't charge $50k-$60k per year to attend your college and you'll achieve that goal w/o lowering the bar and setting less qualified students up for failure as proven by drop-out rates.

IMHO, the main reason why there are less computer science majors is due to all the math and workload. Unfortunately, the majority of people (both males and females) want to take the easy/fun path in college. Back in the day (before everyone had a home computer), we computer science majors (at Loyola) were pulling all-nighters in the computer lab while the business and marketing majors were out partying. Not much has changed since, other than more people want to party instead of work.

Speaking of STEM careers, the last time I saw the official government numbers, jobs in computing (software engineers, computer scientists, coders, etc.) represented 72%+ of all STEM job openings now and project 20 years in the future! Consequently, EVERYONE should be learning to code, and guiding their daughters to the best ROI college major--computer science. ;-)

And, YES! EVERYONE can #LearnToCode at least!

Isn’t it ironic that the harder working and smarter CS majors wind up working for the lazy, dimwitted business and marketing majors? Sadly I was just a lesser management information systems major and don’t fit in either group.

 

[_MIA_]

On the contrary. We have always challenged her from day 1, which is why she started school a year early, and has succeeded ever since. Also, why she's been to six summer coding camps from the time she was ten.

She knows that if she follows my prescribed path, she will graduate with a starting salary in the $80k-$100k range which got her attention; otherwise, she knows that if she wants to take the *easy road* and be an art history major or play her saxophone for a living, then that's on her; I'm not wasting my hard earned money on a useless college major. I had multiple scholarships, grants, loans, and jobs to get me through college. The choice is hers. ;-)

Let me ask you a question? Did you enjoy coding, problem solving, etc? I bet you did. I am not saying this is the case with your DD, but you have to be careful with dangling the salary carrot in front of them because when it comes time to pull the all night coding/studying session it is going to be her love for the subject that keeps her nose on the grindstone and not the salary. As a professor in Aerospace/Mechanical engineering I see it all the time. Kids are majoring in these areas because they were told they could get a good job out of school yet they don't really enjoy the subject and hence are miserable and are not able to force themselves to put in the time necessary to learn the material correctly.

 

[vicimus]

Not really. That's why I am self employed; I had enough of *The Dilbert Principle* (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilbert_principle). ��

Isn’t it ironic that the harder working and smarter CS majors wind up working for the lazy, dimwitted business and marketing majors? Sadly I was just a lesser management information systems major and don’t fit in either group.

 

[vicimus]

Sure. I knew I wanted to sling code the rest of my life as soon as I got my hands on that TRS-80 4K color computer when I was 11 years old. Fast-forward 20 years to when I was technical lead of a project that I grew from myself and one other person to eighteen techies plus two subcontractors (8 figure contract), and I had an epiphany that l *hated* my people management and business development responsibilities, and only loved my technical responsibilities, but no longer had time to sling code. Consequently, I set out to make as much money as I could doing what I loved (code slinging) and to be my own boss. After 15+ years of doing just that, I highly recommend it to my one and only DD.

That said, your concerns below can really be reduced to #1 self-discipline and work ethic, and #2 doing what you're passion about.

As far as #1, we have cultivated DD's work ethic, since she was 3.5 when she asked to participate in her first organized sport (taekwondo), and when she started school a year early when she was 4.5 which resulted in straight A's through MS. She has always played up in every organized sport, and has played BOTH YEAR-ROUND club field hockey and softball concurrently from age 7 and 8, respectively, in ADDITION to playing MS field hockey, softball and basketball.

Just last year in her freshman year, we finally made her choose either field hockey or softball in which to focus on achieving HER dream to play a D1 sport, since her fall freshman grades seemed to be negatively impacted (finished freshman year w/ a 3.8 GPA instead of the usual 4.0), and since she would be competing for a D1 slot against single-sport girls who have been playing year-round much longer. After focusing on softball this past year with her new club, and seeing a *dramatic* improvement in all aspects of her game (esp. pitching), she admitted (w/o us asking) that choosing to focus on softball was the best decision. Also, sophomore 1st quarter grades have significantly improved this year.

So, considering DD's used to having 2-3 hours of homework per night after 2-3 hour practices 3 times per week and tournaments on most weekends in the fall and spring (7 out of 8 fall ball weekends mostly out of town), we are not concerned about her self-discipline and work ethic with regards to completing a computer science degree.

As far as passion for computer science, I've sent her to 6 week long summer coding camps (highly recommend idtech.com!) since the 6th grade, and she has liked them all. She's also taking her first of two AP computer science class this year. That said, I told her that if she gets the passion for something, else, that's fine, but I'm not paying for art history, french, sociology, psychology, anthropology, kinesiology, etc., so if she wants to pursue some easy major with a lousy ROI, then that's on her to get the academic and/or athletic scholarships. Same goes for some $30K-$60K+ per year private or out of state college in general, considering we've been paying more per year for her prep school since 6th grade than all of my K-12 plus bachelor's degree plus master's degree combined!

Expectation management is essential. ;-)

Let me ask you a question? Did you enjoy coding, problem solving, etc? I bet you did. I am not saying this is the case with your DD, but you have to be careful with dangling the salary carrot in front of them because when it comes time to pull the all night coding/studying session it is going to be her love for the subject that keeps her nose on the grindstone and not the salary. As a professor in Aerospace/Mechanical engineering I see it all the time. Kids are majoring in these areas because they were told they could get a good job out of school yet they don't really enjoy the subject and hence are miserable and are not able to force themselves to put in the time necessary to learn the material correctly.

 

[diamond14]

I'd like to resurrect and redirect this thread, so bear with me(mostly because of the Header).
My DD (2021) attended an Ivy camp and during her time there, I overheard parents talking (from same TB org) about how their DDs are committed to this school and how great it will be. I was thinking they were 2020s showing coaches how they continue to progress etc, and paid no more mind. Later learn from my DD that these players were 2021 and was a bit put off (not by players or parents, well maybe a little, ; ). Mostly tho I felt unmoored by the new information. I have been working under the (false?) knowledge that the process for more academically selective schools was a bit slower due to verification of student ability (SAT, rank, rigor etc) thru Jr year in HS.
My DD started contacting schools this summer after a successful TB season and two very good academic yrs in HS. But now I am wondering have we been misinformed about the recruiting timetable for her target schools. And further, I dont want to waste time and money on college camps if the schools have already pinned down their incoming 2021s. (Even tho DD had a good experience, IMO the camp was run as an obvious tryout, with very little coaching involved).
So if anyone has information or experience in this process, I would love to hear your points of view.
Best, D14