is this legal, is it proper?

[bmakj]

game yesterday, last innning, home team at bat, 2 outs, runner on first, representing tying run.

runner goes on the pitch, C guns ball to second, FU (set up behind bag at time of call) calls runner out, HPU overrules, says safe.

Is this allowed, is it correct?

 

[corlay]

I'm pretty sure it is the FU call to make,
and may ask for "help" from the PU, but PU cannot exert his/her will without being asked,
and even then it is the FU discretion to reverse his/her own call.

 

[TMD]

One ump is never supposed to overrule another. Did the coach ask the FU to talk to the PU to see if he/she had a better view? Even then, it's still the FU's call to make and he/she can reverse the call if info from PU warrants it. But for the PU to simply overrule the call of the FU (especially if it was the FU's call to make)? Nope.

 

[marriard]

game yesterday, last innning, home team at bat, 2 outs, runner on first, representing tying run.

runner goes on the pitch, C guns ball to second, FU (set up behind bag at time of call) calls runner out, HPU overrules, says safe.

Is this allowed, is it correct?

As described - absolutely not the way it should be handled. This is CLEARLY the FU's call to make and the PU cannot provide more info to the decsion unless asked.

One umpire cannot overrule another. In the NCAA rule book it actually states this specifically. In the USSSA rulebook it is Rule 14 Sec 8. Some sets not quite as well laid out but it is proper umpire procedure/mechanics.

This is the USSSA text:
"The Umpire making the decision may ask another Umpire for information before making a final decision. The use of videotape by game officials for the purpose of making calls or rendering decision is prohibited. No Umpire shall criticize orinterfere with another Umpire’s decision unless asked by the one making it."

Once an umpire makes a call, it is their call to make the final ruling on. They can ask for more information from the other official(s) with or without prompting but in the end it is their final decision to make. In this case, the FU has made their call - and it is their call. At this point the Plate shuts up unless he is approached by the FU looking for more information. As the calling umpire I will go without prompting if I am uncertain.

I got into a stupid on-line discussion once over 'overruling' with someone who thought that when umpires get together one overrules the other - that is not the case. The supporting official is giving additional information to the calling official who then makes their final decision. It is important distinction for umpires to make

How it should have gone:

- FU makes the call. OUT.
- FU could now go to his partner without prompting for more information. In this case PU tells them what they saw - FU makes the FINAL decision whatever it is.
- If they don't go without prompting, the coach likley comes out to discuss - and either is an idiot or makes a appropriate appeal (sometimes both). Idiots often get what they deserve. Assuming, the coach makes an appropriate appeal - idiot or not, FU listens to appeal and then decides if they need to go to the PU for more info. If they don't, call stands. If they do, PU & FU get together, PU tells them what he saw - FU makes the FINAL decision whatever it is.

 

[bmakj]

One ump is never supposed to overrule another. Did the coach ask the FU to talk to the PU to see if he/she had a better view? Even then, it's still the FU's call to make and he/she can reverse the call if info from PU warrants it. But for the PU to simply overrule the call of the FU (especially if it was the FU's call to make)? Nope.

it was bang bang, near simultaneous. I could not see FU (blocked by players and/or PU), but I saw catcher throw mitt down and rip helmet off in celebration at same time HPU was signalling safe (catcher being DD, I for a moment through she was doing this in protest, but it was actually celebrating, it was a tough come from behind win, they scored 5 in the top of the last inning to take lead).

team got the win, but was just curious on how it should have went down.

 

[The Man In Blue]

- If they don't go without prompting, the coach likley comes out to discuss - and either is an idiot or makes a appropriate appeal (sometimes both). Idiots often get what they deserve. Assuming, the coach makes an appropriate appeal - idiot or not, FU listens to appeal and then decides if they need to go to the PU for more info. If they don't, call stands. If they do, PU & FU get together, PU tells them what he saw - FU makes the FINAL decision whatever it is.

Spot on, but there is one thing that I would implore ... I make a very conscious effort not to use the word “appeal” in these situations. An appeal is a very specific thing only available on specific types of plays.

When a coach comes out and asks “Can I appeal that?”, I always say something like, “No you can’t appeal that. Here is what I saw, but I may have had a bad angle. I can go to my partner to see if he has anything different.”

Piece of advice for coaches: if you are going to come out to question a call, come out and question it. “Blue, what did you see?” Don’t come out like a raving lunatic telling me I’m wrong. If you are going to question the call, have a valid reason and a reasonable course of action to suggest. “Blue, I think you may have had a bad angle/the shortstop may have blocked you out/etc., can you go to your partner for help?” Don’t come out because you don’t like the call.

A good umpire will never say “no” as long as there is a valid reason to go for help. Example: I am BU yesterday, no runners on base. Batter cranks one to the fence. I hurry to cut inside and gage where the runner is going to end up. I’m with the runner and get a bit past second base ready to head to third, when the runner turns back to second. The SS took the cutoff and sees the runner headed back, she dives at the runner with her empty glove outstretched and the ball in her hand outstretched. It all happens on the opposite side of the runner for me. It looked as if the SS got both the empty glove and the ball in hand on the runner, so I rung her up. I had a bad angle.

Here comes the coach, “Can I appeal that?! Can you go ask him?! She didn’t have the ball in the glove!” I agree, the ball was not in the glove, but from my angle it looked like she got both the empty glove and the ball in hand on the runner. And then I deny the request to go for help.

1.) Was this a reasonable play to question? Certainly.
2.) Did the coach do it right? Ehhh ...
3.) Was there a reasonable course of action? This is the problem. I know I had a bad angle and usually wouldn’t balk at going for help. But what exactly is the PU going to see with a similar angle from almost 100 feet away? Absolutely nothing.

 

[flash277]

So as a PU, you know the FU absolutely made the wrong call, you cannot initiate a meeting with the FU to discuss it?

 

[The Man In Blue]

That is an interesting question ... I don’t have a good answer for that.

The reason I say that is because some codes (looking at you baseball) are starting to change their philosophy and lean that way. Some have added a discreet mechanic to inform your partner that you have information for them. Others have started to train their umpires to be overt (e.g., play at the plate and PU is blocked from seeing the ball on the ground, BU is to point and yell “ball is on the ground, Jim!”).

I typically view it like a missed base ... if the coach (or my partner) doesn’t initiate, I’m not going near it.

On the other side of that, if I am working with a newer umpire and I see a coach coming out when I know my partner missed something, I have been known to politely intercept the coach and let her/him know we have this, then proactively go to my partner. Even then though, I let the coach initiate.

Why? I feel it damages my partner to be proactively calling out his/her mistakes. It happens. We get bad angles, we get screened on a play, or we just flat out miss something. There is nothing to be gained by doing anything that will discredit my partner though. It only causes problems down the road. From that point forward, the aggrieved coach will be questioning everything my partner does and constantly expecting me to be covering everything.

 

[kingsoda]

I work a lot of plate assignments with younger and newer umpires in LL baseball, and if I have a kid that I've never worked with before, I let him know in our pre-game meeting that (a) I won't walk up to him to help unless he asks me too, (b) I will give him a subtle signal following a close play if I think I saw something he didn't so that he can ask for help if he wants to, and (c) I've got his back. The last one can be tough when I think he kicked it, but I'm not going to let an adult coach scream at a 14 year old kid for "missing" a close call in a little league game - and one way I do that is by "politely intercepting" as TMIB suggests. The coach can scream at me for all I care. "I'm a man, I'm 40!" Lol.

 

[Comp]

Don't give secret signals that you have something for the other umpire. Coaches are not all stupid and will pick up on your super top secret signal. By rule you are not to give input on another officials call unless asked. Your signal is giving information that isn't being asked for.