Is the change-up the most important pitch?

[cshilt]

I will lite a fire I am sure but I have never seen a rise ball rise...Are they deceptive, yes ... maybe they drop less than they should but I have watched a lot of video and never seen one actually rise. That would include men and women. If someone has a video taken from the side which shows a ball rise up I would love to see it. I dont mean they throw it high... I mean does it start out on one plain and then curve up on a different plain?

If spinning the ball backwards makes it rise then why do one wheel pitching machines not cause the ball to rise? I dont think any human could sin the ball backwards more than a one wheel machine could they?

Not trying to be difficult or start an argument... I just have never seen what other people see.

G

Not really a controversial statement at all. Science proves that it does not rise. Having said that, I've caught an effective rise and those that are "works in progress". There is a difference.

Again, I posted that link to show an effective rise. Compare what some call a rise to that example is all I'm saying.

 

[tojo]

I will lite a fire I am sure but I have never seen a rise ball rise...Are they deceptive, yes ... maybe they drop less than they should but I have watched a lot of video and never seen one actually rise. That would include men and women. If someone has a video taken from the side which shows a ball rise up I would love to see it. I dont mean they throw it high... I mean does it start out on one plain and then curve up on a different plain?

If spinning the ball backwards makes it rise then why do one wheel pitching machines not cause the ball to rise? I dont think any human could sin the ball backwards more than a one wheel machine could they?

Not trying to be difficult or start an argument... I just have never seen what other people see.

G

If you view the Ashley Brokeshoulder on this thread, you will see a little lift on her 1st,4th,5th and 6th riseball starting at 52 seconds on the video. I know there are some coaches that say riseballs don't rise but have less drop.Some coaches also say screwballs don't break you just change the angle of the powerline.

 

[SoCalSoftballdad]

I will lite a fire I am sure but I have never seen a rise ball rise...Are they deceptive, yes ... maybe they drop less than they should but I have watched a lot of video and never seen one actually rise. That would include men and women. If someone has a video taken from the side which shows a ball rise up I would love to see it. I dont mean they throw it high... I mean does it start out on one plain and then curve up on a different plain?

If spinning the ball backwards makes it rise then why do one wheel pitching machines not cause the ball to rise? I dont think any human could sin the ball backwards more than a one wheel machine could they?

Not trying to be difficult or start an argument... I just have never seen what other people see.

G

I agree with you that the rise ball does not "rise" up off plane. I think the confusion is that the riseball's backspin fights gravity a little better than the fastball (forward 12 -6 spin) so the natural drop you would see on a fastball is less on the rise ball and appears to "jump up" as it approaches the plate when in reality all it is doing is staying on plane a little longer than the fastball. An effective pitch since the batter swings slightly under the rise ball pitch expecting it to have an arc similar to the fastball.

 

[tojo]

Not really a controversial statement at all. Science proves that it does not rise. Having said that, I've caught an effective rise and those that are "works in progress". There is a difference.

Again, I posted that link to show an effective rise. Compare what some call a rise to that example is all I'm saying.

Where might I find the scientific study you mentioned that proves a rise doesn't rise? I would greatly appreciate any web site, university study or whatever you can provide. Thanks.

 

[ifubuildit]

AAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH No Not again. LOL

That is the sound you will here anytime someone says prove it on the rise ball.

Here we go again.

SSarge the ball is in your court.

 

[sluggers]

For a pitch to rise, the ball has to deflect upward from its original angle of release.

The definitive study is: "Finding the spin of a Softball Pitch" by Angie Triplett, Physics Department, College of Wooster, June 2005. Google it and you can find the paper, or you can send me a private message with your email address and I'll send it to you. She concluded that the Magnus force for a rise ball was around .4N up. The gravitational force is 1.4N down. So, you subtract the Magnus force from the gravitational force and you get 1.0N down. For the ball to go up (to rise), the Magnus force would have to be greater than 1.4N. So, a rise ball falls about 30% less than a fastball falls over the same distance.

Let's not get into this again...it doesn't matter whether it rises or not as far as the game is concerned.. It is a very effective pitch.

I caught Leigh Podlesny, the former pitching coach at DePaul and former head coach at Middle Tennessee, for a few pitches. Her rise looked like it was on a string.

 

[CoachC]

Recapture the original topic

In a small and probobly fruitless effort to recapture the original topic, the change up may not be the most important pitch, but the ability to change speeds is the most important ability of a quality pitcher.

This can be done with a change up, or an offspeed version of a movement pitch, or it may be that your drop is 5 mph slower than your curve. The end result is a third factor for the batter to deal with (in addition to location and movement.)

 

[tojo]

For a pitch to rise, the ball has to deflect upward from its original angle of release.

The definitive study is: "Finding the spin of a Softball Pitch" by Angie Triplett, Physics Department, College of Wooster, June 2005. Google it and you can find the paper, or you can send me a private message with your email address and I'll send it to you. She concluded that the Magnus force for a rise ball was around .4N up. The gravitational force is 1.4N down. So, you subtract the Magnus force from the gravitational force and you get 1.0N down. For the ball to go up (to rise), the Magnus force would have to be greater than 1.4N. So, a rise ball falls about 30% less than a fastball falls over the same distance.

Let's not get into this again...it doesn't matter whether it rises or not as far as the game is concerned.. It is a very effective pitch.

I caught Leigh Podlesny, the former pitching coach at DePaul and former head coach at Middle Tennessee, for a few pitches. Her rise looked like it was on a string.

I found the study you have suggested. The axis of the ball depicted in the study clearly shows a bullet spin and not a 6/12 four seam rotation. I agree the ball depicted would not drop as much as a 12/6 fastball rotation. Figures 1.2,1.4 and 1.5 show elevation from the original plane and not a straight line. Using the formula, a golf ball with optimum speed would not elevate as it does due to the diameter, weight and rotation of the ball. I am not a phyisicist but this is what I gathered from what I read.I'm still convinced that some rise balls do have a lift if proper rotation and speed is achieved. Look at the Brokeshoulder video on this thread. Not many pitchers are able to get the rotation and balls continue upward and not lift.

 

[3DD'sDAD]

Does anyone remember Chub Tangaroa from New Zealand? I swear to this day, his riseball rose. As I recall, back in the day, it was referred to as an "upshoot". Maybe my understanding of physics at the time was a bit warped by my too many years in college, but it sure seemed to rise to me. I couldn't find any video of Mr. Tangaroa.

 

[tojo]

In a small and probobly fruitless effort to recapture the original topic, the change up may not be the most important pitch, but the ability to change speeds is the most important ability of a quality pitcher.

This can be done with a change up, or an offspeed version of a movement pitch, or it may be that your drop is 5 mph slower than your curve. The end result is a third factor for the batter to deal with (in addition to location and movement.)

Getting back to the topic of change ups. When my youngest DD was 14u and we were playing in the World Series in Florida, one of our pitchers threw a perfect game. She had a fast ball, a slower fast ball(off speed) and a even slower pitch(change up.Basically the same pitch and same spin but was able to mix speeds and sold them well and kept the other team off balance.