Is rotation nonsense?

[julray]

No posture. Very upright.

Are you sure?? Great posture. Maybe you need to start looking at stills W, it's pretty obvious



I can rifle off 100's more swings of the best in the world showing great posture and adjusting to different pitch locations. I can also show hitters who have great posture but need to adjust with their hands because they are fooled and misjudged the pitch location. And there are a few of those hitters who rely on the hands more to get on plane.. . It's all good,

 

[julray]

he doesn’t side bend much. He adjusts w his arms/hands, much like the old timers. He has a flatter swing plane. he has some holes in his swing. But nobody throws sinkers anymore. Guys with upright posture use the arms and hands more, holes are usually down, kill up pitches. Opposite for hunched over players, hit low pitches well and high heat is an issue.

The shoulders will ALWAYS line up with the bat w/o trying to. That means nothing. Look at the plane of the swing arc in relation to the ground. Horizontal or vertical bat angle? That’s the visual.

What do you mean by hunched over players? Players adjust their posture in relation to pitch location, they don't, or shouldn't stay hunched over.

 

[julray]

I prefer adjusting posture to get on plane because it sets up barrel path nicely. It gets the hitter behind and through the ball, the barrel stays in the zone for a long time. If the hitter is upright and drops their hands to get on plane, then I believe the barrel path ends up being around the ball more, and not through the ball. Just my preference and opinion

 

[Work=wins]

Are you sure?? Great posture. Maybe you need to start looking at stills W, it's pretty obvious

View attachment 19793 View attachment 19794

I can rifle off 100's more swings of the best in the world showing great posture and adjusting to different pitch locations. I can also show hitters who have great posture but need to adjust with their hands because they are fooled and misjudged the pitch location. And there are a few of those hitters who rely on the hands more to get on plane.. . It's all good,

I’m not sure what you’re saying. I’m saying his body stays the same and the arms, hands and legs, do the work. The posture of the body stays tall through the swing. He doesn’t create posture then swing. His adjustments are hands and arms and the body will sink.

there aren’t absolutes.Both work. Both are imperfect.

as long as you use stills, we will never know what he’s doing, now will we?


not every hitter does the same thing.

You defined posture as spine angle. you show a guy on insta being bent over and that this needs to be learned... you’ve also said that staying ‘tall’ is not right. I’m showing you that there aren’t any absolutes. You agreed before... It’s done many ways. I would say spine angle only needs to remain constant once the swing starts, upright or bent over. That’s an absolute. Not adjusting the spine per pitch location.

 

[dmcwhinnie]

I think most swings are both linear and rotational. Most swings start off as linear while they are striding and then when the front foot hits the ground it becomes rotational. There are many different thoughts on this.

 

[julray]

I’m not sure what you’re saying. I’m saying his body stays the same and the arms, hands and legs, do the work. The posture of the body stays tall through the swing. He doesn’t create posture then swing. His adjustments are hands and arms and the body will sink.

there aren’t absolutes.Both work. Both are imperfect.

as long as you use stills, we will never know what he’s doing, now will we?


not every hitter does the same thing.

You defined posture as spine angle. you show a guy on insta being bent over and that this needs to be learned... you’ve also said that staying ‘tall’ is not right. I’m showing you that there aren’t any absolutes. You agreed before... It’s done many ways. I would say spine angle only needs to remain constant once the swing starts, upright or bent over. That’s an absolute. Not adjusting the spine per pitch location.

This stills argument you keep making is absolutely ridiculous. You don't like it because it exposes what you are saying. Now I believe in seeing the entire swing.. but stills help us see a certain stage of a swing which is very useful.

For example at heel plant, I like to see what position a hitter is in. At heel plant and shortly after there are many examples hitters adjusting their posture to ensure their barrel enters the zone on plane with the pitch. There's nothing magical about a still.. it's part of a larger process.

In regards to your comments about the hitter in question.. you said he has "no" posture.. completely upright. I just posted these stills to show you that's not true.



I'll admit the hitter above does not rely on posture as much to get the bat on plane. But there are subtle changes in his posture on the high pitch vs low.

In regard to what creates posture, I've already said that the waist, hips and legs are all involved. Also you do realize spine angle changes during hip hinge.. right? Generally when spine angle changes the legs support that as well in order to remain in a dynamic athletic position. Nobody is at the plate doing a straight leg deadlift to hit a ball at the ankles.




Pitch Up in the zone


Pitch Low in the zone

 

[Work=wins]

This stills argument you keep making is absolutely ridiculous. You don't like it because it exposes what you are saying. Now I believe in seeing the entire swing.. but stills help us see a certain stage of a swing which is very useful.

For example at heel plant, I like to see what position a hitter is in. At heel plant and shortly after there are many examples hitters adjusting their posture to ensure their barrel enters the zone on plane with the pitch. There's nothing magical about a still.. it's part of a larger process.

In regards to your comments about the hitter in question.. you said he has "no" posture.. completely upright. I just posted these stills to show you that's not true.

View attachment 19802 View attachment 19797 View attachment 19798 View attachment 19799

I'll admit the hitter above does not rely on posture as much to get the bat on plane. But there are subtle changes in his posture on the high pitch vs low.

In regard to what creates posture, I've already said that the waist, hips and legs are all involved. Also you do realize spine angle changes during hip hinge.. right? Generally when spine angle changes the legs support that as well in order to remain in a dynamic athletic position. Nobody is at the plate doing a straight leg deadlift to hit a ball at the ankles.

View attachment 19800


Pitch Up in the zone
View attachment 19803

Pitch Low in the zone
View attachment 19805

How can we tell if they adjusted when you don’t show the start of the gather/stride and the adjustment in the same gather/stride????

You said they adjust before toe touch via spine angle. your examples are after toe-touch. This is what I’ve said all along. The hips and legs etc adjust. The only time the spine actually adjusts is side bend or on a high pitch after foot down. Once you load and stride that’s it until toe touch. The stride can lengthen creating a deeper squat, but the spine stays ‘tall’ until toe touch. The hands/arms can start to get the bat on plane also when the foot is still in the air.



you can set up for high pitch posture or middle pitch posture. I guess low pitch as well a la Rickey Henderson. That’s why ‘get the foot down early‘ is a thing. That’s why ‘don’t drop your back shoulder’ is a thing. That’s why ‘stay tall‘ is a thing. Can’t adjust until the foot gets down. After foot down, adjustability is in full force. Beforehand you can use your stride and hands.



If you want to say that hip hinge is spine angle.. ok. But they’re not the same thing. But it still doesn’t happen until toe touch. Spine angle is just the point you rotate around. It can be upright or bent. It doesn’t matter. It just means the hands/arms will do more or less and rotate longer/shorter on different locations and speeds. It really depends on your set up and load.

 

[julray]

How can we tell if they adjusted when you don’t show the start of the gather/stride and the adjustment in the same gather/stride????

Romero, same swing. 1st pic Romero at apex of gather, 2nd Romero moving out before toe touch, 3rd Romero at toe touch, Romero just past toe touch(heel still not planted) = Evolution of posture change prior to heel plant .. and FTR I am not saying posture does not continue to change at heel plant and shortly after. At each point in this process Romero has changed her posture in order to get her body in the best possible position to rotate around her spine angle for the low outside pitch.



Please stop saying hitters don't adjust posture. I sick of showing you these pictures. I have a DB with your name on it. For some reason you keep ignoring facts staring you in the face. This is where you start condemning stills because you know it proves you wrong. BTW.. blink really fast and these stills become a video

You said they adjust before toe touch via spine angle.
your examples are after toe-touch. This is what I’ve said all along.
The hips and legs etc adjust. The only time the spine actually adjusts is side bend or on a high pitch after foot down.

Lies, Romero proves you wrong above..

Also in my post.. directly above this one
"...At heel plant and shortly after there are many examples hitters adjusting their posture to ensure their barrel enters the zone on plane with the pitch.... "
"... In regard to what creates posture, I've already said that the waist, hips and legs are all involved. Also you do realize spine angle changes during hip hinge.. right? Generally when spine angle changes the legs support that as well in order to remain in a dynamic athletic position. Nobody is at the plate doing a straight leg deadlift to hit a ball at the ankles..."

Ya need to read or it's just a waste of time.. and I don't mean selective reading either

Legs - Hips - Waste - Spine, all connected, all reactive. Ever do a wall squat? That's what you make it sound like when you talk about being "Upright". When the hips hinge & legs bends.. the spine angle also changes. It's called being balanced. Otherwise you would topple backwards. You make it seem like I only talk about spine angle when talking about posture.. probably because of a couple comments and video I showed about 8 months ago when you went all posture police on me. I've said relentlessly on this site.. posture is achieved by multiple muscle groups, not just bending at the waist. However spine angle changes when hips hinge. I said it in my post directly above yours

Once you load and stride that’s it until toe touch. The stride can lengthen creating a deeper squat, but the spine stays ‘tall’ until toe touch. The hands/arms can start to get the bat on plane also when the foot is still in the air.

you can set up for high pitch posture or middle pitch posture. I guess low pitch as well a la Rickey Henderson. That’s why ‘get the foot down early‘ is a thing. That’s why ‘don’t drop your back shoulder’ is a thing. That’s why ‘stay tall‘ is a thing. Can’t adjust until the foot gets down. After foot down, adjustability is in full force. Beforehand you can use your stride and hands.

If you want to say that hip hinge is spine angle. .. ok. But they’re not the same thing.

This is what I said in a post directly above yours..
"Also you do realize spine angle changes during hip hinge.. right?"
How does that equate to me calling hip hinge and spine angle the same thing? One is the action, the other is the result. Study the pic below if you don't understand this

But it still doesn’t happen until toe touch. Spine angle is just the point you rotate around. It can be upright or bent. It doesn’t matter. It just means the hands/arms will do more or less and rotate longer/shorter on different locations and speeds. It really depends on your set up and load.

Your body is in a much stronger/dynamic position when posture is aligned for pitch location. Your do not need to count on an isolated arm/hand adjustment when the body is in position to support these smaller muscles... but you will be in a much better position to adjust. Also barrel path will be true and optimum (unless your arms get away from you) when good posture is established as per pitch location.. like you mentioned above.. it's the point you rotate around... why not set the axle at the angle you want to rotate around.. instead of relying on weaker muscles in the arms and hands?

You want to tell a hitter to stand tall regardless of pitch location and rely on their hands/arms to get on plane.. fine., all the power to you. TTB is one way of doing that. And I am not saying you can't have good posture while TTB either. Just saying that's one way to drop the barrel in the zone while have 0 posture.

 

[Work=wins]

Romero, same swing. 1st pic Romero at apex of gather, 2nd Romero moving out before toe touch, 3rd Romero at toe touch, Romero just past toe touch(heel still not planted) = Evolution of posture change prior to heel plant .. and FTR I am not saying posture does not continue to change at heel plant and shortly after. At each point in this process Romero has changed her posture in order to get her body in the best possible position to rotate around her spine angle for the low outside pitch.

View attachment 19816 View attachment 19817 View attachment 19818 View attachment 19819

Please stop saying hitters don't adjust posture. I sick of showing you these pictures. I have a DB with your name on it. For some reason you keep ignoring facts staring you in the face. This is where you start condemning stills because you know it proves you wrong. BTW.. blink really fast and these stills become a video


Lies, Romero proves you wrong above..

Also in my post.. directly above this one
"...At heel plant and shortly after there are many examples hitters adjusting their posture to ensure their barrel enters the zone on plane with the pitch.... "
"... In regard to what creates posture, I've already said that the waist, hips and legs are all involved. Also you do realize spine angle changes during hip hinge.. right? Generally when spine angle changes the legs support that as well in order to remain in a dynamic athletic position. Nobody is at the plate doing a straight leg deadlift to hit a ball at the ankles..."

Ya need to read or it's just a waste of time.. and I don't mean selective reading either

Legs - Hips - Waste - Spine, all connected, all reactive. Ever do a wall squat? That's what you make it sound like when you talk about being "Upright". When the hips hinge & legs bends.. the spine angle also changes. It's called being balanced. Otherwise you would topple backwards. You make it seem like I only talk about spine angle when talking about posture.. probably because of a couple comments and video I showed about 8 months ago when you went all posture police on me. I've said relentlessly on this site.. posture is achieved by multiple muscle groups, not just bending at the waist. However spine angle changes when hips hinge. I said it in my post directly above yours


This is what I said in a post directly above yours..
"Also you do realize spine angle changes during hip hinge.. right?"
How does that equate to me calling hip hinge and spine angle the same thing? One is the action, the other is the result. Study the pic below if you don't understand this
View attachment 19820


Your body is in a much stronger/dynamic position when posture is aligned for pitch location. Your do not need to count on an isolated arm/hand adjustment when the body is in position to support these smaller muscles... but you will be in a much better position to adjust. Also barrel path will be true and optimum (unless your arms get away from you) when good posture is established as per pitch location.. like you mentioned above.. it's the point you rotate around... why not set the axle at the angle you want to rotate around.. instead of relying on weaker muscles in the arms and hands?

You want to tell a hitter to stand tall regardless of pitch location and rely on their hands/arms to get on plane.. fine., all the power to you. TTB is one way of doing that. And I am not saying you can't have good posture while TTB either. Just saying that's one way to drop the barrel in the zone while have 0 posture.

look at Romero’s foot in the first still... Still on the ground. Hasn’t strode yet. The third still she has contact with the ground. Couldn’t produce the ones in between bc they were THE SAME as the second?? You ain’t foolin anyone.

I said they don’t adjust spine angle in mid-air. Stop saying they do.

If getting the hands/barrel on plane first while the body follows is wrong, I don’t wanna be right. It’s the only way. Look at the best. They all do it. The key is doing it in sequence.

no one is disputing postural changes happen AFTER toe touch. I’m disputing in mid air with spine angle. Doesn’t happen, nope, negative, nunca!

Barrel path CANNOT be true to all locations. Unless you know what’s coming. It’s why all players have holes. Yes even Mike Trout. Mr on plane himself. If the posture set at stride was adjustable in mid air hitting would be a lot easier. And TM would be right! You can’t. So it’s not.

the Romero gif is classic posture set and can’t adjust until foot down. Why didn’t she just start side bending earlier? She clearly knew it was low and away, but chose to lengthen her stride and sink first, while adjusting her hands? Do you swing a bat? Try creating posture for a middle middle pitch while striding in mid air and adjust posture to hit the low and away. You can’t. You lose space. Or you drop your back shoulder early.

Still waiting to see this dynamic posture change in a gif. Just slow it down so we can see it. Oh wait you can’t produce one, bc no one does that until toe touch. Go to baseballsavant.com and try to find one. There are millions of videos there. I’ll wait for as long as you need...

 

[julray]

Your question...

" How can we tell if they adjusted when you don’t show the start of the gather/stride and the adjustment in the same gather/stride????"

My answer...

Pic 1 shows Apex of her gather
pic 2 shows Romero at mid stride
Pic 3 shows Romero just at toe touch
pic 4 shows Romero just after toe touch, heel still off ground

Each pic shows a change in posture. If you believe there is no progression between each pic and she just ends up in these positions .. then I can't help you. Regardless this is not about how much a hitter's posture changes during the stride.. during stride there is very little posture change for the most part. You showed a hitter and said he had 0 posture completely upright. I showed you a couple of pics showing that hitter with very good posture.. you are just grasping at straws and moving the goal posts here.

I said in my initial(https://www.discussfastpitch.com/threads/is-rotation-nonsense.39974/post-590998) response to you..
" At heel plant and shortly after there are many examples hitters adjusting their posture to ensure their barrel enters the zone on plane with the pitch "

You have always said a hitters posture doesn't change.. they gather, they start their stride and posture remains the same regardless of pitch location.. now you are saying posture is changing at toe touch. Seems like you are starting to come around

Each pic shows different changes in posture.. posture is evolving into to toe touch(AND AFTER) to put her into the best position to get on plane with with the pitch. I am not saying posture is SET during the stride, you actually said that. You said that posture is set at gather/stride and maintained regardless of pitch location.. it doesn't change. I am saying it's a progression into heel plant and shortly after. Your story is changing to coincide with the evidence.. that's good. means you are learning.

Side bend before heel plant? CMON W, wth are you talking about? She's still coiled into toe touch.. doesn't make any sense at all. Love to see you try to side bend while striding in a coiled position.

Like you mentioned above, during her stride Romero knew it was going to be a low outside pitch. I am saying Romero's posture change is a progression. Your argument has always been the hitters posture does not change