IR..Bout to pull my hair out

[Tatonka]

ah, Seminole, I'm pretty sure I know exactly where you're coming from, having been there myself with my DD. So, please, let me offer a tip, find yourself a good PC. they see things we don't see and they know things we don't know. why? because they have already been where we are now and done it. chrispotts showed me the light and now java is teaching me how to turn on the light. notice I said "me". yes, they were both instructing my DD but only a fool wouldn't be right there listening in, taking notes, and then trying it out at home with their DDs. paraphrasing java, how about we work on removing things instead of adding things? so, instead of adding whip, how about we remove the problematic shoulder spin first? you may see that doing that also helps with the landing posture. which helps with the whip.

Sage advice right there. Following it can be difficult though, finding a good PC in many areas is next to impossible, working with a good PC via text, email, youtube, videos, etc. is doable but can also be frustrating at times for a variety of reasons. Taking on the task of learning the proper mechanics and all the little things that go into it is important as it will help you see the bigger picture when one of the gurus is explaining or suggesting something. As cvsoftball says, a good PC that has been there, done that has vision to see the whole motion and the proper cues or questions to get their point across to the athlete. Seminole you DD looks good now, keep up the good work, keep asking and learning and remember....it's a loooong journey!

 

[uncdrew]

ah, Seminole, I'm pretty sure I know exactly where you're coming from, having been there myself with my DD. So, please, let me offer a tip, find yourself a good PC. they see things we don't see and they know things we don't know. why? because they have already been where we are now and done it. chrispotts showed me the light and now java is teaching me how to turn on the light. notice I said "me". yes, they were both instructing my DD but only a fool wouldn't be right there listening in, taking notes, and then trying it out at home with their DDs. paraphrasing java, how about we work on removing things instead of adding things? so, instead of adding whip, how about we remove the problematic shoulder spin first? you may see that doing that also helps with the landing posture. which helps with the whip.

Agreed.

I learned pretty early on that Dad + Daughter + YouTube + Google + DFP does not = Awesome pitcher

A good professional coach does wonders.

Also, if she's getting the IR drills wrong, I wouldn't be proceeding to full pitch and wondering how to fix things. I'd be going back to the drills until they do them right. These drills are progressive. You do "Lock It In' and once that looks good, you go to "9 o'clock". Then "Show It." Each one builds off doing the previous one correctly. If you do the drills wrong and then go to full pitch guess what? You'll do full pitch wrong.

Don't get me wrong -- she's doing a lot right. And has tons of potential. But I'd focus hard on those drills. Take a few days where you don't even do full pitch. And if you can fit in a coach, that'll do wonders.

 

[Gags]

When you throw overhand the shoulders are significant contributor, in the fastpitch motion they add very little. It is often very difficult to get pitchers to transition from feeling like they have to use the shoulders to feeling and trusting the armwhipping motion. The fact that your daughter 'walks through' all her pitches indicates that she has a right side dominant feel to her motion...

A few weeks ago, we were focusing on warming up and throwing easy - almost to the point of just letting gravity do the work. My daughter noticed how fast she was able to throw it when she wasn't even trying (IMO, b/c she was just letting the whip happen). Something that might help with keeping the shoulders still (and looks similar to one of Coach James video's), is doing the arm circles with both hands. Several of the 2018 threads had videos from Japan, where a reporter was taking lessons from Ueno's coach. One of the drills that was used (I assume to help learn the feeling of throwing across your body) was standing sideways to a net, then doing circles with both arms 2-3 times, on the last circle, releasing the ball into the net. Even without trying it yourself, it should be apparent how little torso movement is required to perform these motions.

 

[Rosey]

I agree with uncdrew that she should perfect the IR drills before moving to full pitch. That being said I thought this was a neat drill/idea by JJ Johnson with the pole. I've only tried this with a few kids.

"This is to show the intent behind the stick drills for the kinetic chain. Mostly, we want to initiate hip rotation and external shoulder rotation BEFORE we accelerate the downward arm motion. Notice also, once we start going around the circle, we want a slight external hip rotation and an open-footed stance to promote faster rotation. Once we start stepping, we want the hip rotation to happen as we are landing to speed up the hips and generate dissociation with the shoulders. Also, HEAL STRIKE!!! Heal strike initiates deceleration. Toe strike initiates ACCELERATION!!! Disclaimer: I found out today that I only have about 45 degrees of rotation in my T-Spine, so please follow the concept not the demo. #CoachBetterDoWork to follow more please follow me on Twitter @jjpower19. I do most of my pitching posting there." https://www.facebook.com/jjpower19/videos/10112847873200963/

 

[Ken B]

Also, if she's getting the IR drills wrong, I wouldn't be proceeding to full pitch and wondering how to fix things. I'd be going back to the drills until they do them right. These drills are progressive. You do "Lock It In' and once that looks good, you go to "9 o'clock". Then "Show It." Each one builds off doing the previous one correctly. If you do the drills wrong and then go to full pitch guess what? You'll do full pitch wrong.

/\ Good stuff /\

I was going basically suggest the same. Start small and build with successful reps. Go as hard as possible while maintaining perfect reps.

 

[Seminole]

I am in total agreement with you guys about finding a PC. Well before I discovered this site and was a born again believer in IR...when she first wanted to learn to pitch as a 9 year old, we used a guy that several other pitchers used in the rec circuit; he taught straight arm delivery, wrist snapping and the like. A year ago, we changed coaches and she was a firm believer in “at 12:00, the ball needs to be facing second base and wave bye-bye to your centerfielder;” however, she really helped her lower body, stride, etc. About the summer of 2018, I discovered you guys...and have been trying to work with her at home while getting weekly lessons from the HE believer. The lessons got stagnant, and I just couldn’t see continuing to shell out cash for something that we didn’t believe in. So..we’ve had a couple lessons from another PC in the area and while the first lesson was great (focused on the lower body and showed us how to work inside/outside pitches) today she wanted to work arm circles and tried to reinforce the concept that at 12:00 she wanted to see her fingers (ball pointing away from catcher) and to lead with the wrist straight down. So, after a lengthy explanation...where do I find this PC that will help my daughter do it the right way..we’re 0-3. How do I go about finding one and how will I know what she believes in before I go through a lesson or two only to find out our philosophies don’t jive?

Now..on to the IR drills...starting from scratch...if we weren’t about to start our rec and TB season, I’d be all for it...she’s the “only” pitcher for her rec team and will be counted on heavily on the TB team. Again, I know we should slow it down and get the basics nailed down, no disputing that, just how, when she’s going to be pitching at the very minimum two games a week?

 

[Ken B]

"Trust the force, Luke..."

Really--do what you can, as much as you can. There are two paths: One can be pretty rough up front, but the long term success is very nice. The other gets you acceptable success up front, but can limit, or even end the chances of later success.

 

[Rosey]

[MENTION=16622]Seminole[/MENTION] That's where I'm hoping the DFP instructor list I posted in another thread takes off. It's short now but hopefully the more attention it gets you'll find one close to you. It should have been started years ago. Ironically the first ones to put their names on it were Java and Coach James who probably need the least amount of introduction. Lol. The list will never be fool proof. You will never know how good an instructor is or be on the same page of everything they teach or the order they teach it. The list is a starting point of at least people of have read through some of these threads and hopefully agree that the palm should be facing the catcher at 12, up/side at 9, and turn inward during release. How well they know it & how well they teach it is always up for grabs. https://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-pitching/35712-dfp-instructor-list.html

 

[bobbyb]

You are doing a great job with her and you really don’t need to look at it as a start over.
I want to give another perspective.

The kinetic chain is the kinetic chain. The mobility joints (vs stability joints) in relation to the kinetic chain… from ground up are ….
ankles, hips, thoracic, shoulders, wrist/forearm. I will assume she has good ankle mobility and stability.

It is hard to fix shoulder and thoracic/torso issues or movement…. when the hips are not quiet correct. A lot of compensations happen up the chain as you see on this forum with a lot of young pitchers.

She is doing a good job keeping her overall spinal posture….but her hips are anteriorly tilted too much at release and getting to much low back extension. You see it easily just past release.

When you improve lumbopelvic hip stability at release for FSR… then you are more able to tell whether the shoulders/glove arm are compensation, lack of disassociation (torso from hips) or whether they can be controlled better.

Years ago there was a little research that showed when pitching…the non-stride (rear hip) gluteus maximus (largest butt muscle) is more active than the stride side at release. It (rear hip glutes) are the major contra-lateral stabilizer the lumbopelvic hip complex for FSR. This is HUGE imo and a primary reason you see so many beginning pitchers having problems and unable to change it very quickly. I personally think its one of the most missed aspects of front side resistance.

The front side hip is undergoing an isometric contraction for stability between the hip extensors, flexors, adductor and abductors. In most young beginners the hip flexors and adductors win out because that's what is dominate for them…causing forward anterior pelvic tilt and more of a dominate adductor leg action.

Watch Amanda Scarborough’s (tip pic) rear hip rise a little as hips are decelerating…and as she is releasing…watch the same movement with Coach Jame’s (middle pic) player (watch bottom of shirt). Then watch your dd.

Their pelvis is decelerating and stabilizing in a more neutral position (not flexed) for deceleration and stabilization.

That is the rear glute stabilizing the complex for release. The rear hip should be glute dominate…rather than leg adductor dominance here.

What I would do with her is start with this area before worrying about torso and glove swim…

1. Teach her hip hinging, Glute hip extension and pelvic tilt rotation…feeling it at the area where the hams and glute meet…and lower abdomen.
Hip Hinging: https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&biw=1444&bih=842&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=ksKDXKWDO-Lv9AOIzrbYAw&q=hip+hinging+movement&oq=hip+hinging+movement&gs_l=img.3..0.8104.9272..9462...0.0..0.203.1401.0j8j1......0....1..gws-wiz-img.......0i30j0i24.Cz2fwbQpE1k
Gluteal Hip Extension: https://www.healthline.com/hlcmsresource/images/topic_centers/Fitness-Exercise/400x400_5_Exercises_for_Anterior_Pelvic_Tilt_Half_Kneeling_Hip_Flexor_Stretch.gif
Pelvic tilt: https://www.google.com/search?q=pelvic+tilt&client=firefox-b-1-d&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi4077ol_XgAhVollQKHcqODfQQ_AUIDigB&biw=1444&bih=842

2. Train the lumbopelvic hip complex for stability with at least some basic exercise. Stuart McGill is considered by most to be the worlds leading spinal researchers. Look up his Big 3 exercise and everyones versions/progressions and have her do them each day of the week. Its a good place to start and build upon.
Big 3: https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&biw=1444&bih=842&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=asKDXMnpJdeN0PEPovq54Ag&q=McGill+big+3&oq=McGill+big+3&gs_l=img.3..0l3j0i30j0i5i30l3j0i24l3.526441.531324..531604...0.0..0.183.1743.0j12......0....1..gws-wiz-img.......0i67j0i8i30.9FcfG-BTz8U

3. Take the 12 o’clock, 9 o’clock drills as others have said….as a warm up or as a practice ….and concentrate on REAR HIP extension/glute contraction and less forward pelvic tilt as she is releasing..doing this while trying to catch the whip.

It isn’t a start over, nor hard to incorporate into what you currently do.
Just my 2 cents. Good luck and keep up the good work!

 

[Rosey]

[MENTION=2293]bobbyb[/MENTION] Great Post!