Injuries HE vs IR

[Ken2]

I’m very curious to know which type of pitching leads to the most injuries. Even when done correctly, which style creates the most injuries? There is such an abrupt, momentary stoppage of the upper arm in I/R, I was just wondering if that could cause issues, even though I/R aside from pitching, is a normal movement, as long as it can freely move.

I’m not expert in medicine or softball, but I’m interested in the physics of these styles.

 

[GunnerShotgun]

Comparing the two styles is giving credibility to HE (Hello Elbow) that it doesn't deserve. They aren't competing styles; it's the right way vs the wrong way.

It's like holding the bat the normal way vs holding barrel of the bat in your hands (and hitting with the bat upside down). You then are asking to compare and contrast the two hitting methods.

I mean you could probably get some hits holding the bat upside down but why the hell would you want to hit that way?

IR is a natural movement of the arm and one of benefits is that it doesn't hammer the shoulder like HE does. Grab a ball and try it yourself....

 

[SWPadad]

The answer without a doubt is HE. Let me say that you are making the right decision on switching to IR. First, the stoppage of the upper arm is a good thing when done properly with brush contact. It helps decrease the load on the rotator cuff muscles in deceleration of the high speed medial rotation and the triceps in deceleration of flexion of the humerus. Basically you are protecting the rotator cuff of excess stress by transferring the energy to the forearm and to your fingers. Most injuries to HE pitchers are the elbow and the biceps but like i said before also the shoulder. So every time a girl pitches and shows her elbow she is activating her bicep muscle. So imagine doing that a 100 times(pitches). Now lets talk about the elbow. I want you to take a softball and point the ball at second base. What do you feel? Tension in the forearm. Now grab a ball and point it palm up or toward third base. Do you feel tension in the forearm? You shouldn't. The ball pointing toward second base causes the stress on the elbow (forearm is attached to it). So there is my take on HE.

 

[Gambler Bob]

There is a study that is just getting off the ground in regards to fastpitch pitchers, and injuries. Dr. James Andrews (Dr. Andrews is the famous orthopedic surgeon that works with many high level athletes), Tincher Pitching, and a group of placebo pitchers. are participating in the study.

The organization that my daughter plays for has some pitchers that are participating in the study, including my daughter. Personally, I am looking forward to what comes from this study. Like I said the study is in its infancy so I don't claim to know every detail. I think it will be years before they can use their data to determine useful information regarding overuse, injuries, and different styles of pitching.

 

[efastball]

There is a study that is just getting off the ground in regards to fastpitch pitchers, and injuries. Dr. James Andrews (Dr. Andrews is the famous orthopedic surgeon that works with many high level athletes), Tincher Pitching, and a group of placebo pitchers. are participating in the study.

I am very familiar with many of these studies as it relates to baseball pitching. I would not get my hopes up that this initial study will answer questions about what causes injuries, or which technique causes injuries. They will come back with things like with 'this motion had significantly higher elbow valgus torques" and the like, and then no thought of how that torque relates to injury. Hundreds of studies have been done on baseball pitching and they have no real idea what causes UCLs to tear.

 

[Gambler Bob]

I am very familiar with many of these studies as it relates to baseball pitching. I would not get my hopes up that this initial study will answer questions about what causes injuries, or which technique causes injuries. They will come back with things like with 'this motion had significantly higher elbow valgus torques" and the like, and then no thought of how that torque relates to injury. Hundreds of studies have been done on baseball pitching and they have no real idea what causes UCLs to tear.

I am not expecting any kind of ground breaking news anytime soon from this study. There are too many uncontrollable variables in what I am expecting this study to be. I am happy that there is a study regarding pitchers in fastpitch softball.

 

[MattM]

With IR there really is no "abrupt momentum stoppage of the upper arm". It is something that happens naturally where the upper arm transitions into rotational movement transferring energy to the lower arm. From the side view there is a slight pause in the upper arm as this happens but if you try this yourself it is a very fluid and relaxed feeling. HE on the other hand is modeled more like a marry go round where the center axle must maintain constant force and this puts tension and stress on the small muscles surrounding the shoulder. The Drive Mechanics thread provides a great explanation.

https://www.discussfastpitch.com/threads/drive-mechanics.18135/page-7

 

[cnardone]

and of course the common 'wisdom' in my neck of the woods is that IR is bad for the elbow. I've heard it on more than one occasion. Arggggg.

 

[marriard]

Yes! While our pitching coach has never said “I/R does this or that,” he has said HE, when done correctly, will not cause injury or tire the arm out. He doesn’t say “HE,” but that style is taught.

Another coach just repeating a myth with nothing but 'what someone said' behind it.

Maybe HE doesn't cause injuries because the very few HE pitchers who try to pitch this way in games no longer pitch? I have as much proof for that statement as anything else. We really do need a sarcasm font on this forum....

Seriously, with slo-motion video showing a IR-type motion for any decent pitcher in college you would think this would change some peoples minds but I have heard it all over the years.

 

[Cornbread]

I’ve seen shoulder injuries occur on pitchers that take the ball behind their body on their backswing.