Illegal substitution PGF

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Feb 15, 2017
920
63
Pitcher pulled for pinch hitter. On defense pitcher goes back in and pinch hitter stays in. Coach tells umpire the wrong number as the pinch hitter goes in on defense for DP and coach told ump the DP's number.

No one says anything even up until after the game. Coach is told he and the player coming back in should have been ejected for game and the next one.

Is this an illegal substitution or should the umpire have told him he can't go back in for that number?



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marriard

Not lost - just no idea where I am
Oct 2, 2011
4,312
113
Florida
I am a little confused about what happened in the way you have described it, however for an illegal substitution, the only way this would be an ejection is if the coach did it on purpose and it wasn't just a mistake they made. Ejections do carry rest of the game/all of the next penalty for most tournaments/sanctions.

The penalty for a discovered illegal defensive player is that the player/sub should be restricted to the bench for the remainder of the game
(and there is some description about what happens if an illegal substitute was involved in the play before they were 'discovered'. That is it. If no one discovers it, then effectively it didn't happen.

NFHS Reference:
Art 3.3.4 Art 5 Defines an illegal substituion
ART. 5 . . . Any player, starter or substitute may be withdrawn from the game and re-entered once, provided such player occupies the same batting position whenever in the lineup. A starter and any substitute for a starter may not be in the game at the same time. A violation results in illegal substitution.

Art 3.4.1 Art 3 Defines the penalty

ART. 3 . . . Illegal defensive player is discovered before the next pitch to either team when:
a. involved in a play with batted ball;
b. a non-batted ball is handled or touched by an illegal substitute that leads to a runner being put out;
c. a non-batted ball is handled or touched by an illegal substitute that alters the play, but no runner is put out (i.e., on an overthrow on a stealing runner, the illegal substitute retrieves ball and prevents runner from advancing farther).
PENALTIES: (Art. 3)
1. The illegal player/substitute shall be restricted to the dugout/bench for the remainder of the game. (Art. 3a, b) Team on offense has option of taking the play or accepting the penalty (out is nullified, runners return to base occupied at time of pitch.) (Art. 3c) Umpire may award bases based on his/her judgment and the circumstances concerning the play. (Art. 3a) The batter is allowed to bat again with the same count. (Art. 3b, c) The pitch is canceled if it is a strike or stands if it is a ball.
2. After another pitch, all play stands but the illegal player/substitute is still restricted to the dugout/bench for the remainder of the game.
3. Any time a non-batted ball is handled or touched by an illegal substitute and does not lead to a runner being put out or alter a play, the play stands and the illegal substitute is restricted to the dugout/bench.
 
Feb 15, 2017
920
63
coach subbed in DD as pinch hitter for pitcher
Reported number coming out and number coming in. End of the inning DD was staying in on defense to replace designated player and pitcher came back in to pitch. Coach by mistake gave the ump the pitcher coming back in for DP number.

After game other coach complained and tournament director said coach should have been kicked out along with the pitcher and then be out for the next game as well.



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marriard

Not lost - just no idea where I am
Oct 2, 2011
4,312
113
Florida
coach subbed in DD as pinch hitter for pitcher
Reported number coming out and number coming in. End of the inning DD was staying in on defense to replace designated player and pitcher came back in to pitch. Coach by mistake gave the ump the pitcher coming back in for DP number.

After game other coach complained and tournament director said coach should have been kicked out along with the pitcher and then be out for the next game as well.

So... why did the other coach wait to complain? Almost everything in the baseball/softball rule set is set to be resolved immediately or before the next pitch. After the game is almost always too late.

It is not a rule that comes up very often and the penalty is different in different rule sets. PGF generally uses NFHS rules and I believe what I posted above is correct.

As an example though, USSSA rules are more unclear - if you believe it is an illegal player violation the penalty is probably correct although the exact scenario is not really covered in the rulebook. If you just consider it an illegal substitution it is just a team warning and you correct the lineup assuming the player didn't affect the play before it was noticed. I am leaning towards illegal player which feels like a harsh penalty.
 
Feb 15, 2017
920
63
So... why did the other coach wait to complain? Almost everything in the baseball/softball rule set is set to be resolved immediately or before the next pitch. After the game is almost always too late.

It is not a rule that comes up very often and the penalty is different in different rule sets. PGF generally uses NFHS rules and I believe what I posted above is correct.

As an example though, USSSA rules are more unclear - if you believe it is an illegal player violation the penalty is probably correct although the exact scenario is not really covered in the rulebook. If you just consider it an illegal substitution it is just a team warning and you correct the lineup assuming the player didn't affect the play before it was noticed. I am leaning towards illegal player which feels like a harsh penalty.
My thinking was the moves were defensive and pitcher went back in the same spot in lineup so no issue. If there was an issue umpire should have reminded coach pitcher had to go back into the lineup for the same number that went in and DD should have to go into DP spot.

To me a big nothing burger but TD doesn't know the rules

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May 29, 2015
3,731
113
The TD has no idea what he is talking about.

The coach is a fool for waiting to ask AND for asking the TD instead of the umpire or UIC. Do I ask the salesman at the car dealership about traffic laws?

Personal soapbox: The umpire should have caught the number mixup when it was given. It drives me up a wall when an umpire doesn’t keep a proper scorecard. (More so because the next game the coach will come to my plate meeting without one and say “The last guy didn’t want one.”)
 

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