illegal pitches?

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May 17, 2012
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Generic term I've heard used since the pitching distance was moved from 40" to 43" feet to describe how it allowed the US pitchers who relied on movement pitches more time for their pitches to do what they do. I used "break" as a single word to avoid having to explain:

a) before the forward spin on a dropball causes gravity to affect the ball more than the brain estimates the trajectory of the ball when the brain determines which bat path to use to hit the ball.
b) before a riseball's backspin has time for gravity to start having the ball dropping slower than the brain estimates the trajectory of the ball, causing the swing to use the wrong bat path to hit the ball.
c) I've never learned how to throw a curve ball, but it is a pitch that the natural path of the ball is to cross the front corner of the plate, so a batter neutral to back in the box cannot make good contact on the ball when it reaches even to where their bat path is as a pitch off the plate. Someone up in the box can hit it where it crosses the corner of the plate, or foul it off if there are 2 strikes. I don't like calling curve balls because it does not have as much up or down movement to trick the brain if the batter is up in the box.
d) Similar description of how the movement of a change up tricks the brain.

That the batter sees the ball from the pitchers hand until it hits the bat is a myth. According to the article linked below from Sports Illustrated, the baseball batter doesn't see the ball the last 8" to 15" feet. The batter makes an educated guess on the path of the ball from what they see and projects the path of the ball to hit it. That is why Jennie Finch and Paige Parker can strike out baseball players. Their brain doesn't have the database to estimate the path of the ball. Give them a day or two of hitting practice against softball pitchers they will hit, but may mess up their baseball swings some. That is why a submariner pitcher is effective at least once through the order in MLB. I've seen 11 year old girl softball pitchers scare over-confident 11 year boy baseball players in the batter's box. It is why girls switching from baseball to softball have an adjustment period before they are good hitters. Why most batters have an adjustment period when they move from the 11' ball to the 12' ball. They need to add more/different information to the database.


Pitcher on DD's team last year ruined her curve ball near the end of the summer because she had been doing strength and conditioning work during the summer and was throwing the ball harder, causing the curveball to miss the front corner of the plate by ~2 inches.

I am an engineer, been on this board for over 11 years, started coaching in 2005, umpiring around 2010. I've stayed at the same hotel as Rick Pauly, Bill @Hillhouse, Brandon Carr, Mike Mulhleisen, Doug Romrell, @Ken Krause, Chris Delorit, Dave Edwards, Jamie Carr, James Clark, and Rich Balswick-- plus I bought the t-shirt to prove it! Do you think I'm making things up? :).

Pitching is the art of deception and disrupting timing. Ideally a pitch looks the same from hand separation, going through the same window in space, until roughly halfway between the pitcher and home, before the spin on the ball caused by the release out of the pitchers hand takes over to move the ball the way that spin does. A good hitter recognizes spins out of the hand, tells the pitcher has, makes educated guesses on what pitch the pitcher will pitch in that situation, and tries to recognize pitch call patterns of the other team.



View attachment 25544

Case in point, in the game I umpired this evening the good hitters could hit the pitcher throwing 47ish without a lot of spin. The pitcher throwing 43ish with more spin on the ball won the game. It's why as an umpire a fair amount of the time I know if a pitch will be a strike with a high rate of success when it is 10 to 15 feet from the pitcher's hand.


That's great, and I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night...

It's a simple question...can you explain this in detail: "My DD is neutral to up in the box to decide whether to hit the ball before it breaks."

I would also encourage you to update your visual hitting research. There has been clarity since the 1954 Sports Illustrated article.
 
Jan 22, 2011
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She's 14, just finishing up 8th grade. Started softball in 6th grade and has been taking pitching lessons weekly for 16 months. She had never pitched in a MS game until this season, though. Her speed and accuracy are improving all the time, but at the moment she's low 40's and most games throws 60-67% strikes. She usually only walks a couple kids a game and hits a batter or two (we call her sniper). She does pretty well overall for being so new to it and for making such slow progress for the first 11 months or so. Things started to fall into place about December and she's really coming along quickly now. The speed used to frustrate me, but it's never outpaced the accuracy, which I see FAR too often in kids on other teams. Her speed actually gives a lot of kids problems for an inning or two when she comes in after the normal starter. I call her the human change-up.

I don't know exactly what you would call her style. She'll be starting a leap/drag after this season ends. Right now it's a lunge forward while the pivot foot stays in its original position until the right hip comes around. It's the style her instructor (former men's team USA) teaches the kids that start brand new until they start to leap/drag. Seems to really help them learn how to keep from falling over to the right. That's such a bad habit I see in other kids and it's difficult to break. She struggled with it a long. long time. There's hardly any change when it becomes time to leap/drag. It's just a matter of learning that portion of it and memorizing it physically. The hip is already doing what it's supposed to do.

The release is a push slightly in front of the hip. The circle is a push until palm faces backward by about the 11:00 postion (going clockwise) where it becomes a pull, then push release so there's no significant elbow rotation during the release. I've not really seen the exact style on youtube other than part of it that some refer to as rotational pitching. I'm no expert and may be describing it poorly but I pay a lot of attention at the lessons so I've got probably 70 hours of observation. I like to say he's her instructor and I'm her coach. He corrects and adjusts the mechanics, and teaches new stuff, and I spend several hours trying to make it habit. It's fun though.
Good. In general male fastpitch pitchers make excellent pitching coaches. Bill Hillhouse, Rich Balswick, and Rick Pauly all pitched at a high level in men's fastpitch. Proper posture is very important. My DD is a lefty, so she was falling over to the left, which was causing some of her leaping issues.

Do some youtube searches on Hillhouse, Balswick, Pauly and Mike Mulheisen. Look up Amanda Scarborough ( https://www.pitching-angel.com/ )

To avoid repeating myself, take a look at this thread: https://www.discussfastpitch.com/threads/experiences-with-speed-cords.43393/#post-663152

Remember to keep it fun and concentrate on what you can control. My philosophy as a coach was to be polite with the umpires when I had a question, not expect to get the call I wanted, but to get on the umpire's good side for him to be more willing to ask for help on the next close call. The HC should quietly mention the leaping issue to the umpires (it's the BU call), and let it go whether or not they call it. Remember the BU is responsible for both the pitcher's feet and watching the baserunners for leaving early.
 
Jan 25, 2022
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Good. In general male fastpitch pitchers make excellent pitching coaches. Bill Hillhouse, Rich Balswick, and Rick Pauly all pitched at a high level in men's fastpitch. Proper posture is very important. My DD is a lefty, so she was falling over to the left, which was causing some of her leaping issues.

Do some youtube searches on Hillhouse, Balswick, Pauly and Mike Mulheisen. Look up Amanda Scarborough ( https://www.pitching-angel.com/ )

To avoid repeating myself, take a look at this thread: https://www.discussfastpitch.com/threads/experiences-with-speed-cords.43393/#post-663152

Remember to keep it fun and concentrate on what you can control. My philosophy as a coach was to be polite with the umpires when I had a question, not expect to get the call I wanted, but to get on the umpire's good side for him to be more willing to ask for help on the next close call. The HC should quietly mention the leaping issue to the umpires (it's the BU call), and let it go whether or not they call it. Remember the BU is responsible for both the pitcher's feet and watching the baserunners for leaving early.
I try and keep things light at all times. The kids are still learning so any yelling is followed up with an explanation and encouragment. And I always respect the umps. They have a difficult, thankless job. I usually tell them that too. It would be very unlikely that I would even raise my voice. That's what my head coach is for. Some of them are soooo awful though. Ugh.

I've looked at Rick Pauly's videos before. He has some stuff in common with her coach's style at the hips. Usually I look for similarities in any of the videos I watch and see if there are cues or things I can use when we work at home.
 
Jan 22, 2011
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That's great, and I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night...

It's a simple question...can you explain this in detail: "My DD is neutral to up in the box to decide whether to hit the ball before it breaks."

I would also encourage you to update your visual hitting research. There has been clarity since the 1954 Sports Illustrated article.
It was a Holiday Inn, not a Holiday Inn Express :).

Do you have links to more recent information on visual hitting research you can share? I went to a coaches conference in ~2010 where Mike Candrea was recommending the Nike vision training system, but I haven't heard anything about that in the last 9 years or so.

My philosophy may be slightly old school, but they work for my DD. I gave a long response to your "simple" question in the previous post. Being up in the box helps my DD my daughter hit or foul off movement pitches before they move more.

I like your constructive information on other threads, not sure why you are being intentionally obtuse here. Is there nothing to learn about hitting from studying what Babe Ruth and Ted Williams did because that info is from the 1920's and 1950's?

I think its best to agree to disagree.
 
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Jan 22, 2011
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Cannot remember when they started the yellow ball. But I remember testing it doing self toss up by myself.
With white ball from home plate could not hit over a 200 fence
but the yellow ball I can self toss and hit it over.
That was Eye Awakening to what was about to happen to fastpitch.
Plus lighter bats easier.

The white ball is what I knew all my life and it was just normal to look at.

The yellow ball was a little weird at first,

What I really noticed most was texture in my hand. White ball more texture.
Which do think there's a possibility the Old white balls seemed to move more then I think the yellow balls do.
Which believe texture may have created greater wind resistance and such toward effect of spin and air flow.
While I cannot prove that other than recollection of difference at the time the two softballs switched over. And seeing a difference in movement of the pitchers switching over, do know pitchers had to learn the new yellow ball.
One of my coaching mentors played catcher in men's fastpitch in the 70's. Digging through some old softball info this morning I found this answer when I asked him about the white vs. optic yellow ball:

"Fundamentally they are the same. The white however, because of its color and its stitch count, seam geometry and shape could offer more spin control, greater movement, especially at lower velocity, and be more difficult to see. All factors that impact hitting. But that difference is minimal except at the highest levels."
 
May 16, 2016
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This is going to cause some major cognitive dissonance with certain DFP members.... read at your own peril.

MAY 2012 PLAYS AND CLARIFICATIONS​

May 31, 2012, 12:48 p.m. (ET)


Fast Pitch Pitching Styles

For the past few months or so we have been asked about a pitching style called a “Push, Drag, Push” or a “Crow Drag in Women’s and Junior Olympic Fast Pitch. This is described as a pitcher that pushes from the pitcher’s plate, drags her pivot foot, stops and pushes again. We have been told that there are some indicators like a bent leg or the pivot foot bearing weight as a factor in this style of pitching. We have looked at several videos (I'm betting it was video of Kelly Barnhill) and several pitchers. We disagree that any of these pitchers are pushing, dragging, stopping and pushing again. We can see what appears to be a pivot by the pivot foot at the end of their delivery but not a re-push.

Nowhere in the ASA rules does it state anything illegal about the pivot foot bearing weight or the leg being bent. As long as the pivot foot starts on the pitcher's plate and pushes away, remains on the ground within the 24-inch width of the pitcher's plate and the arm continues without stopping in the delivery, it is a legal pitch. The pitcher opening her hips causes the foot to turn (pivot mark in the dirt) and then with pivot foot remaining on the ground (drag mark), the pitcher then closes her hips which produces another pivot mark in the dirt. This is not an illegal pitch by ASA pitching rules. We would also add, it is not possible to push, drag, stop and re-push while the non-pivot foot is in the air. It is possible to re-push if you leap and land.

When watching a pitcher, look from the standpoint they are legal until they do something illegal. Break the rule down to the simplest of terms:
Rule 6, Section 1C[2]: The pitcher shall take a position with both feet in contact with the pitcher’s plate.
Rule 6, Section 2: The pitch starts when the hands are separated once they have been placed together.
Rule 6, Section 3I: In the act of delivering the ball, the pitcher must take one step with the non-pivot foot simultaneous with the release of the ball. The step must be forward and toward the batter within the 24-inch length of the pitcher’s plate. It is not a step if the pitcher slides the pivot foot across the pitcher’s plate toward the batter, or if the pivot foot turns or slides in order to push off the pitcher’s plate, provided contact is maintained with the plate. Raising the foot off the pitching plate and returning it to the plate creates a rocking motion and is an illegal act.
Rule 6 Section 3K: Pushing off and dragging the pivot foot in contact with the ground is required. If a hole has been created, the pivot foot may drag no higher than the level plane of the ground.
Following our rules in simple form should make it easier to determine an illegal pitch in our Women’s and Junior Olympic game.
 

radness

Possibilities & Opportunities!
Dec 13, 2019
7,270
113
This is going to cause some major cognitive dissonance with certain DFP members.... read at your own peril.
That's a great disclaimer!👍

MAY 2012 PLAYS AND CLARIFICATIONS
May 31, 2012, 12:48 p.m. (ET)


Fast Pitch Pitching Styles

For the past few months or so we have been asked about a pitching style called a “Push, Drag, Push” or a “Crow Drag in Women’s and Junior Olympic Fast Pitch. This is described as a pitcher that pushes from the pitcher’s plate, drags her pivot foot, stops and pushes again. We have been told that there are some indicators like a bent leg or the pivot foot bearing weight as a factor in this style of pitching. We have looked at several videos (I'm betting it was video of Kelly Barnhill) and several pitchers. We disagree that any of these pitchers are pushing, dragging, stopping and pushing again. We can see what appears to be a pivot by the pivot foot at the end of their delivery but not a re-push.

Nowhere in the ASA rules does it state anything illegal about the pivot foot bearing weight or the leg being bent. As long as the pivot foot starts on the pitcher's plate and pushes away, remains on the ground within the 24-inch width of the pitcher's plate and the arm continues without stopping in the delivery, it is a legal pitch. The pitcher opening her hips causes the foot to turn (pivot mark in the dirt) and then with pivot foot remaining on the ground (drag mark), the pitcher then closes her hips which produces another pivot mark in the dirt. This is not an illegal pitch by ASA pitching rules. We would also add, it is not possible to push, drag, stop and re-push while the non-pivot foot is in the air. It is possible to re-push if you leap and land.

When watching a pitcher, look from the standpoint they are legal until they do something illegal. Break the rule down to the simplest of terms:
Rule 6, Section 1C[2]: The pitcher shall take a position with both feet in contact with the pitcher’s plate.
Rule 6, Section 2: The pitch starts when the hands are separated once they have been placed together.
Rule 6, Section 3I: In the act of delivering the ball, the pitcher must take one step with the non-pivot foot simultaneous with the release of the ball. The step must be forward and toward the batter within the 24-inch length of the pitcher’s plate. It is not a step if the pitcher slides the pivot foot across the pitcher’s plate toward the batter, or if the pivot foot turns or slides in order to push off the pitcher’s plate, provided contact is maintained with the plate. Raising the foot off the pitching plate and returning it to the plate creates a rocking motion and is an illegal act.
Rule 6 Section 3K: Pushing off and dragging the pivot foot in contact with the ground is required. If a hole has been created, the pivot foot may drag no higher than the level plane of the ground.
Following our rules in simple form should make it easier to determine an illegal pitch in our Women’s and Junior Olympic game.
 
Jan 22, 2011
1,610
113
I think this is ASA blowing smoke to cover for a pitcher who will pitch on the national team. Article is from 2012.

From 2022 USA softball rules supplement 40:

1 A CROW HOP is defined as a replant of the pivot foot prior to delivering the pitch. This can be done by (1) sliding the foot in front, but not in contact with, the pitcher’s plate; (2) lifting the pivot foot and stepping forward; or (3) jumping forward from the pitcher’s plate with the pivot foot prior to starting the pitch. Umpires should look at the location of the pivot foot when the hands separate, the start of the pitch. If the pivot foot is off and in front of the pitcher’s plate before the hands separate, this would be a crow hop and an illegal pitch should be called.

2 LEAPING occurs when both of the pitcher’s feet become airborne on the initial move as the pitcher pushes from the pitcher’s plate. In the WOMEN’S and JO Fast Pitch divisions both feet may be airborne. ADULT MALE and JO BOYS pitchers are allowed to have both feet airborne as long as the pivot foot toe is pointed downward toward the ground. If the pivot foot toes are not pointed downward, an illegal pitch should be called. All pitchers can also legally push and drag the pivot foot on the ground during the step.
 
May 16, 2016
946
93
I think this is ASA blowing smoke to cover for a pitcher who will pitch on the national team. Article is from 2012.

From 2022 USA softball rules supplement 40:

1 A CROW HOP is defined as a replant of the pivot foot prior to delivering the pitch. This can be done by (1) sliding the foot in front, but not in contact with, the pitcher’s plate; (2) lifting the pivot foot and stepping forward; or (3) jumping forward from the pitcher’s plate with the pivot foot prior to starting the pitch. Umpires should look at the location of the pivot foot when the hands separate, the start of the pitch. If the pivot foot is off and in front of the pitcher’s plate before the hands separate, this would be a crow hop and an illegal pitch should be called.

2 LEAPING occurs when both of the pitcher’s feet become airborne on the initial move as the pitcher pushes from the pitcher’s plate. In the WOMEN’S and JO Fast Pitch divisions both feet may be airborne. ADULT MALE and JO BOYS pitchers are allowed to have both feet airborne as long as the pivot foot toe is pointed downward toward the ground. If the pivot foot toes are not pointed downward, an illegal pitch should be called. All pitchers can also legally push and drag the pivot foot on the ground during the step.

This seems completely consistent with the May 2012 Clarification. I guess I am not getting your point, or see where they are blowing smoke. And this is not an "Article", it is a rule clarification.
 
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