I/R in the Classroom

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Apr 12, 2015
792
93
Yeah, that is muscling the ball, even if they are showing IR. It is forced IR. Once of the hardest and most overlooked components of a good whip is getting the pitcher to trust in it. Best of luck to you and your DD!
 
Sep 29, 2014
2,421
113
Apart from wanting maybe to see the ball a little closer to palm up at nine (actually more straight arm circle than you would think too) Jennie is actually locking it in and whipping and using brush and front side resistance really well...like all good pitchers do. She gets a bad rap because she doesn't understand how to properly explain what she is doing but those mechanics are pretty good as you would expect. File this under do as I DO not as I say...


finchIR.jpg
 
Mar 23, 2011
492
18
Noblseville, IN
What makes IR whip work in fastpitch is the same as whip created in an overhand throw. It is by maxing out the ER of the shoulder socket. At the highest level of both throwing mechanics the arm is forcibly ER'd due to forward momentum and bio-mechanically forced hip snap.

As the arm approaches 12 o'clock, a high level pitchers' scap will begin pulling the entire shoulder complex back which kicks off the posterior drive train and forces the hip to snap due to glute contraction. This is happening as the arm/ball/torso are in a lag position so the hip snaps and yanks the upper torso rotationally forward. The weight of the arm/ball and their inertia have a countering force to hip snap all of which gets realized at the shoulder and creates a ton of stretch.

The scap pullback happens as the athlete is going all-in to pull the ball around the circle. If the athlete is focused on rotating the ball around the circle, the scap pullback might be bypassed which is bad for whip creation.

With that palm up is really good if it is the result of tremendous stretch in the shoulder. However palm up isn't always the best indicator since you can have weak stretch in your shoulder while heavily supinating the wrist. If you are the former, then you will create a lot of velocity due to whip of the shoulder PULLING the ball forward. If you are the latter, you will not have stretch in your shoulder which will then have to PUSH the ball forward and velocity will most definitely suffer.

Similarly if you are core torquing your hips in the pitch, you are PUSHING your hip and thus losing the force production from the glutes at the cost of velocity (and probably some accuracy). A core torque will not produce the nearly as much stretch in the shoulder as the glute firing and bio-mechanically force hip snap which is a PULLING rear hip.

BTW - One of the reasons that overhand throwers require a pitch count is because their ER is always completely max'd out since their elbow does not have a hard-stop to work as a force limiter like brush interference does for fastpitch.
 
Oct 24, 2018
6
3
What makes IR whip work in fastpitch is the same as whip created in an overhand throw. It is by maxing out the ER of the shoulder socket. At the highest level of both throwing mechanics the arm is forcibly ER'd due to forward momentum and bio-mechanically forced hip snap.

As the arm approaches 12 o'clock, a high level pitchers' scap will begin pulling the entire shoulder complex back which kicks off the posterior drive train and forces the hip to snap due to glute contraction. This is happening as the arm/ball/torso are in a lag position so the hip snaps and yanks the upper torso rotationally forward. The weight of the arm/ball and their inertia have a countering force to hip snap all of which gets realized at the shoulder and creates a ton of stretch.

The scap pullback happens as the athlete is going all-in to pull the ball around the circle. If the athlete is focused on rotating the ball around the circle, the scap pullback might be bypassed which is bad for whip creation.

With that palm up is really good if it is the result of tremendous stretch in the shoulder. However palm up isn't always the best indicator since you can have weak stretch in your shoulder while heavily supinating the wrist. If you are the former, then you will create a lot of velocity due to whip of the shoulder PULLING the ball forward. If you are the latter, you will not have stretch in your shoulder which will then have to PUSH the ball forward and velocity will most definitely suffer.

Similarly if you are core torquing your hips in the pitch, you are PUSHING your hip and thus losing the force production from the glutes at the cost of velocity (and probably some accuracy). A core torque will not produce the nearly as much stretch in the shoulder as the glute firing and bio-mechanically force hip snap which is a PULLING rear hip.

BTW - One of the reasons that overhand throwers require a pitch count is because their ER is always completely max'd out since their elbow does not have a hard-stop to work as a force limiter like brush interference does for fastpitch.
How can you train a 9 year old to pull with her scap?
 
Apr 12, 2015
792
93
How can you train a 9 year old to pull with her scap?

You don't. Teach her ball up at 9:00. When she is older (teenager) and if there is inefficiency in the motion, then you can identify and teach scap action if needed.

Most will figure it out on their own, however.
 
Feb 20, 2012
263
18
I've received so many PM's and Emails about I/R I've decided to speak more about training Internal Rotation, and the progression we use to build a foundation for the underhand throw.

First of all, we all know that grip, stance, posture, wind-up/load and leg drive all contribute to pitching a softball. IMO, none of these are on my list of "absolutes". They are "styles". That is, not every high level pitcher uses exactly the same style any of the above listed requisites of pitching.

The ONLY thing I view as an absolute in pitching is Internal Rotation. Which is why I focus on it so much. If I can teach a young lady/man to "throw" a softball correctly and efficiently, and literally "play catch throwing underhand" as naturally as they would overhand, my job becomes so much easier when it comes to adding "style".

With that in mind, lets talk about I/R as a training method to that end. Using drills that isolate the motions of I/R, and are progressive in nature to involve more and more of the sequence.

First of all, I/R is a "motor skill". Whether natural or learned, it is a skill that can either be taught or enhanced by focusing and training the bio-mechanics and physics that cause the motion to occur, in sequence.........

One of the first things that has to happen for a proper I/R delivery, is that the upper arm (bicep) must be trained that it is the stability point for Internal Rotation. It rotates AND stabilizes vertically. It must be properly positioned in close to the body and vertical in order for the forearm to internally rotate on the tightest radius possible. It ALSO must be trained to pass kinetic energy from the proximal to the distal parts of the sequence. IOW.........The energy must be passed from the arm circle, through the upper arm (proximal part), to the forearm (distal part) and down through the wrist into the fingers and ball.

In order for this transfer to occur, the upper arm must be caused to decelerate to almost a stop when it reaches the stable vertical position close to the side, and then continue forward as a follow through energy dissipation result........That cause begins with Internal Rotation of the forearm "taking the energy" from the arm circle, causing decel of the upper arm........

Take note of these pitchers stable vertical position of the turning upper arm.....And how the elbow stops advancing through the circle for a split second........

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y4mqrwWoB_ONPcKfc4-CJB8iGqOQI2oiuEk7pL6YqzC4hOdmaCkzV82cLX7Q9uxw6npFJvXY1fPsVgd4sXtnOhtsX0LChoeCd74Zp-xsOMZusODAweyF1Pt2MX_GWcQf9wZAqNcdsw0bdUBXUhalbRnIqSBxKQMCMkJaLJZBxO3e-Bgb-w9cTMmkj0Hjk3i8LkPamEgpquQKxuGcH1PwxmhWw


In order to train the upper arm to stabilize, and transfer energy, we need to limit it's ability to do anything but turn away then face forward by responding to the commands of the forearm as it REMAINS in the stable vertical position close to the body.

The quickest way I've found to accomplish this is by using what I call the "lock it in" drill. A drill that keeps the elbow at the side, thereby keeping the upper arm stabilized and vertical and transferring energy to the forearm........

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The student must throw the ball using External Rotation then Internal Rotation/Pronation of the forearm WITHOUT moving the upper arm (elbow) back/away, OR forward past the body until release causes follow through.........It can turn back but it cannot MOVE back.........

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More in the morning as we progress to "Unlock It".......... In regards to the
 
Feb 20, 2012
263
18
Mr. Pauly, Either I'm not teaching right or I'm going to have to dispute what you say about what you call I/R. First of all I try not to turn my hand over. Lisa Fernandez does not turn her hand over on follow through. I might say here that it would be difficult to throw a rise like that. 2nd what you call I/R is really the whip action. What I call I/R is what the forearm does after it fires. 3rd if you rotate the arm with proper whip action across the body then the upper arm and the lower arm will be aligned on the body and hip so the S/R will be automatic because of brushing or what you call arm hip contact. 3rd Jenny Finch and Sara Pauly have totally different mechanics. Sara does not keep her weight back S/R from a more closed body posture and the follow through on both pitcher are different. Jenny's is more across the body which Sara does not. I try to teach POP the ball off the hip instead of snap and I would never practice keeping my upper arm at my side after forearm fire. Anyway you had your say so and so I am entitled to mine.
 
Feb 20, 2012
263
18
Progression

By the time my students have become fairly proficient at throwing the ball underhand, we progress to the "Liberty Drill"......Simply MORE of the same? Well, an uneducated person might think so. But remember what I said previously.

Who's on first?

"And isolation WITH progression leads to continued non-isolated motor learning of the parts previously isolated."

In other words, when we progress NOT TO FAR, but just far enough, the learned motor skill is "close enough" to the whole of the next drill that it is CLEARLY still represented in that drill.........

For example, IF I allowed my student to progress to FULL MOTION practice drills from this point, the learned I/R motor skill would be so far away (at the end) from the full motion drill, I/R would deteriorate. I NEVER WANT I/R to deteriorate at the expense of progressing to far to fast.

Liberty Side and Rear......If you'll notice, this drill closely mimics the actions of the Magician drill:

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y4mMTXIaPYMO3q0FEz3bM9WUJnyXytX8NMTllUTpY7mL_kcJg645DLJXHIUo45B-uLz41WRHcvdRR8GpM5PAfjTT4v4LcIIN1ezGvdtMw4ivR-2qAG153WZ-OQB-lhXqlFk2WScJSBBK_-hmy0WRuTDqW4m3yvnbld4Jv5ewTjgI1FbEfeni7mN3GD2XsembQumnpwGoJtgDLqo0UbFRlEndg


Thanks to my wife who brought her glove to work and caught for the first time in 20 years so I could film these drills at work........With the sun in her eyes no less!

After proficiency at Liberty, we move on to "Show it And Throw it"........Or the 12:00 Drill........

This drill helps the student progress to what I consider the most important part of the pitching motion......WITHOUT sacrificing emphasis on I/R.......This drill places emphasis on ball position at the top and the "pull down" in the motion WITH an I/R delivery..........

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Then on to relaxed "long toss" full circle drills.......

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I hope these visuals help you to gain a better understanding of what I write about concerning I/R delivery and the importance of learning to "throw a ball underhand" before learning to be a pitcher.

One thing I've learned over my 30 or so years of teaching fastpitch. I could spend 3-6 months on posture, grip, wind-up and leg drive, only to find out you DON'T KNOW HOW TO THROW THE BALL in the first place........

Progressive training side effects include helping to train arm circle, posture and delivery methods that ensure the end product produces expected results.

Last.......Train them from WHERE THEY ARE.........NOT WHERE YOU WANT THEM TO BE.......
Lets see here. I'm analyzing Mr. Pauly.s motion. What he does is what looks to be a chicken winging turning the hand and arm over and closing a little to soon. He brings the ball back like I do so it appears he is trying to throw a rise ball. Like our mechanics are somewhat similar only I'm going on 80 so he is probably 30 years younger.
 

sluggers

Super Moderator
Staff member
May 26, 2008
7,133
113
Dallas, Texas
Lisa Fernandez does not turn her hand over on follow through.


We don't have many good videos of Lisa pitching in a game. A lot of pitchers (such as Finch) were taught that an HE finish was correct. Therefore, when they make teaching videos, they tend to show an HE finish.

If you watch game videos of Finch throwing, you will see pronation of the forearm.

2nd what you call I/R is really the whip action.

I/R simply means "internal rotation". Internal rotation is anatomical term meaning "rotation toward the middle of the body". We use I/R because it has a defined meaning used by everyone, (Even @DrRiello knows what it means.)

"Whip", on the other hand", has no defined meaning. Every PC in the world says s/he teaches whip, and everyone has their own pet definition.

I/R occurs several time during the pitching motion. The rotation of the shoulders after 12, the closing of the hips, and the pronation of the forearm are all internal rotations.

What I call I/R is what the forearm does after it fires.
You are specifically talking about pronation of the forearm. If the forearm does not rotate counterclockwise (from the P's point of view), then there is no internal rotation.

so the S/R will be automatic because of brushing or what you call arm hip contact.
I'm assuming you mean I/R.

There is nothing "automatic" or "natural" about the pitching motion, either baseball or softball. It is all learned.

3rd Jenny Finch and Sara Pauly have totally different mechanics.
Totally different? Please get me some of that stuff your smoking.

The two motions are very similar. Sarah is more upright than Jenny. Sarah has the ball more on top of the hand than Jenny at 9. Sarah is *slightly* more closed.

These two motions are hardly "totally" different.[
 

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