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How do you decide?

Jan 16, 2020
20
3
to OP:

18 AB's or 18 plate appearances? Not to split hairs...but I've found many interchange those two terms. So would her plate appearances be higher? It could change the perspective of your story.

That said you've received some very good information and advice. I will say while games are important and that's where you want to be....practice is underrated. MORE PRACTICE-well good intentional practice designed to get better at the game. I too see those teams that play every weekend with few practices and they essentially look the same start of season and at the end of the season.

good luck. Remember it's about her not you.
PA. Total times she came to plate. The spreadsheet is hard to read, because most of girls played with team already. So some stats are from summer, fall, 12u and 14u.
 
Jan 16, 2020
20
3
First, thanks for hearing my post without being defensive. I was afraid I might come across wrong. Wasn't criticizing, just suggesting that you get more input from her. Her opinions are more important than ours. I would ask if she's happy, and how would she feel about finding a team where she bats 10 times per tournament and plays in the field most of the time. Educate her to her options. She needs to know that this isn't what travel ball is for most kids. Most kids will just do what they're told, so they need to be empowered with their options. Then she is the one solving her problems, which is a great lesson to learn. The answer to all your questions lies within her, not us, IMO.
No thanks necessary, because your response is exactly what I'm looking for. These are her learning years, years when she should develop a skill that she loves, and learn that there is a difference between asking coach a question, and questioning coach decisions. All my concerns are based on her, and it is my job to protect her and guide her as we see fit. So again, I took zero negativity, and I greatly appreciate your response. We will play last tournament, and then we as a family ( with her opinion included )will decide which direction is best. Thanks again
 
Jan 16, 2020
20
3
Not to be rude or argumentative but how do they get better? Playing games? If they are not good then how will games make them better? If the player is a SS she may have 4 opportunities to field ground balls during a game. During a practice she may get 100 balls hit to her. If she is a pitcher and can't get outs how does playing in games help her or her confidence?
I get the importance of games but honestly I see teams in our area that year after year play every weekend game after game and during the week but still at 18u playing low "B" ball.
IF ya want to grow the player then the ratio of 5 to 1 is what you need to do.
5 hours of practice for every 1 hour of game time. Sitting on a bench never killed anyone and in fact probably helped many.
JMO
If I may jump in, my problem has never been her sitting on the bench. I have tried with every response to make that clear. She is not the best player on team, so I expect her to sit and rotate in and out. My expectations are that the entire team would do that, because thats what we were told. All girls play, and best player plays the most.
For all my years, thats the way it happened. I learned humility that I still carry from sitting, watching, and listening.
My post is simply asking this.
Is it better to play on a C team, or sit on a B team?
And at what point do you say, this is not the right team for us?
I strongly believe in practice, and I believe that it should be practice where people seperate themselves.
 
Jan 5, 2018
325
63
PNW
PA. Total times she came to plate. The spreadsheet is hard to read, because most of girls played with team already. So some stats are from summer, fall, 12u and 14u.
Fair enough. I coached through 14U. I had this discussion with parents and players and they'd bring up AB's but those determine BA....really they were discussing PA's. I'm a little odd in my approach. I actually tracked every inning played by my players, position they played in addition to the BA/OBP/PA's etc. I had this in a spread sheet so we could discuss if necessary at the end of the season. Having the real numbers squelched a lot of objections or perceptions.

The back story of WHY i did this goes back to a season of t-ball coed baseball. We laugh about it but call it the "COOPER #7 Story". 1 st year tball team. we bat the lineup. Last batter clears the bases. 13 players on a team. If we had 11 or fewer everyone found a spot in the field. if all 13 then we played 10 and rotated every inning. Usually only 3 innings played. I rotated the batting order so if you were lead off last game you moved to the last position the next game and rotated everyone up a spot...I had a spread sheet to help me keep track of this.

One day I get a email from Cooper #7's mom. She lays into me about his grandparents coming on Saturday and if he's not going to play than he's not going to be there on Saturday and it's not worth their time. I responded kindly and shared our philosophy and procedures for playing time as well as positions (everyone wanted to be pitcher even if not "pitching"-that's where most balls went). I told her I'd be happy to show her our spread sheet and how and where Cooper #7 played. Mom and Dad had a shared email. Next email was from her husband telling me not to worry "he'd handle it". Rest of season went off with out a hitch. Cooper #7 and my DD were teammates one more year and classmates for 5 years until they moved. All was good.

But out of that moment I decided to up my "tracking" so if someone had a question or perception we could look at the actual numbers. I did end of fall and end of summer season conferences with players/parents. It was useful to have that information at that time too. I also tracked your practice attendance. Came in real handy when a Dad was complaining about playing time and line up order (I know I know). But when I told him and his DD that she'd been to roughly 30% of practices and she'd played over 50% of the innings in games she'd been available for. Her PA's were only 10% less than the highest player on the team. Her BA was the lowest. It ended the conversation when the real numbers were used and not a parents perceptions. MY GOAL was not to have it be equal and my orginal intent for keeping detailed info was to insure that I wasn't accidently leaving someone behind in opportunities (fielding/positions/lineup/PA's) etc.... especially at the younger ages where I think development trumped winning at all costs.

MY DD is 16's and she switched team largely because of practice or lack of with her old club. Good quality practice is so important and the couple it with game time opportunity.

Good luck to your DD.
 
Feb 10, 2018
211
43
NoVA
Question to the OP, what region of the country are you playing in? Here in the NE, the fall season is the time when coaches find what they have in the field and batting order. Then we go inside for 3-4 months to improve for spring. Once Spring comes, lineups and positions are more defined and it is tougher to break in. Players usually commit for a full year (Sept-July)

Do you feel like DD has had enough exposure to show her strengths and weaknesses?
Understand you are asking a question, but If the fall for this coach was about "finding out what he has," shouldn't he have been playing and batting the OP's DD much more often in games?
 
Dec 18, 2016
129
28
Not to be rude or argumentative but how do they get better? Playing games? If they are not good then how will games make them better? If the player is a SS she may have 4 opportunities to field ground balls during a game. During a practice she may get 100 balls hit to her. If she is a pitcher and can't get outs how does playing in games help her or her confidence?
I get the importance of games but honestly I see teams in our area that year after year play every weekend game after game and during the week but still at 18u playing low "B" ball.
IF ya want to grow the player then the ratio of 5 to 1 is what you need to do.
5 hours of practice for every 1 hour of game time. Sitting on a bench never killed anyone and in fact probably helped many.
JMO
Didn't take it as rude or argumentative. I agree that there should be practice to get the reps and get better, but if all you have is practice you won't get better in game time. You'll be a great practicer, but when the games come along and the pressure is truly on you won't know how to handle it. She also can't prove to anyone that she is good enough to play. There will always be players that sit more than others but I also believe there's a balance between playing on a team where you get a reasonable amount of playing time and are still pushed to get better. In most travel teams the coach rotates in pool play and on bracket day the starters play.

If the coach is treating every pool game as a bracket game and your DD wants to play, I say find a team that may fit her needs/wants better. Staying in a crappy job may make you a better employee by learning to deal with tough situations but if you're not happy, then you should probably change jobs. Same goes for a softball team. If your DD isn't happy, find another team. If it's a re-occurring issue, which I don't think it is (based on OP post) then it's a different conversation.

My two cents.
Dave
 
Oct 5, 2018
116
28
Not to be rude or argumentative but how do they get better? Playing games? If they are not good then how will games make them better? If the player is a SS she may have 4 opportunities to field ground balls during a game. During a practice she may get 100 balls hit to her. If she is a pitcher and can't get outs how does playing in games help her or her confidence?
I get the importance of games but honestly I see teams in our area that year after year play every weekend game after game and during the week but still at 18u playing low "B" ball.
IF ya want to grow the player then the ratio of 5 to 1 is what you need to do.
5 hours of practice for every 1 hour of game time. Sitting on a bench never killed anyone and in fact probably helped many.
JMO
If I may jump in, my problem has never been her sitting on the bench. I have tried with every response to make that clear. She is not the best player on team, so I expect her to sit and rotate in and out. My expectations are that the entire team would do that, because thats what we were told. All girls play, and best player plays the most.
For all my years, thats the way it happened. I learned humility that I still carry from sitting, watching, and listening.
My post is simply asking this.
Is it better to play on a C team, or sit on a B team?
And at what point do you say, this is not the right team for us?
I strongly believe in practice, and I believe that it should be practice where people seperate themselves.
I skimmed some of the thread so I may have missed some stuff or be repeating. But 18 ABs in 40+ games, we'd be gone. A lot depends on the goals for your DD. Some kids could practice 10 hours for every 1 hour of game time and still be a C player in 18u, but enjoy the game and want to continue playing. Some teams do not practice a ton and some parents can't afford hours and hours of private lessons.

This is a local team, maybe competitive in their circle. At this age and level, playing time should be spread around in pool. Obviously your stud 0.600 hitting ball hawk shortstop is going to play every inning. But 7 - 12 should likely be at a 50/50 split with 3 - 6, getting some breathers too. For me ideally at the younger ages, you find a team that teaches the fundamentals and generally playing time is fairly equal. Once you realize maybe 2nd year 14u, your DD isn't going to be a D anything college player, then I would prioritize opportunity to play. At that point you probably have at most 4 more years to play. I'd play on a C team and take my 60 ABs in 30 games. Of course, if DD is having a blast, enjoys her role as is, then great.
 
Jan 16, 2020
20
3
WTF! I'm not going to beat around the bush here. 18AB's! How does that coach sleep well? This is Turrible (Charles Barkley voice). Dude! Your DD deserves to play more than 2 innings over a 5 game weekend, even if she was the worst player on the team. Every team has a "worse" player on a team and they get to play too. This is NOT a situation where you say "We are breaking up because it's Me, not You" YOU COACH are the problem, and a poor excuse for a coach. You need to find a team where your DD is respected, coached up, given ample playing time, etc. This is a situation where I would be saying, I pay the same amount of money as these other families and why isn't my kid playing? Move on for the sake of your DD and your family's sake. The "oh dang, we were supposed to get you in this game" Secretly the coach was hoping noone noticed. Really, you can't manage a lineup or game time to get ALL of your players in the game. Back when I was HC, from 8U to 14U, I NEVER sat a girl an entire game....NEVER! This coach thinks he is doing something good. Pathetic! SMH.
Really enjoy the Barkley. And thanks for input.
 

Cannonball

Ex "Expert"
Feb 25, 2009
4,181
113
I have a couple of questions and concerns that I would like some opinions on. My DD is 3rd year travel, local only, no showcase or nationals. First season 14u finishing in next couple of weeks. We went with new team ( new to us, existing team ) for fall, because org dropped all teams under 16u. Overall opinion has been, meh? The team is all 07, all pretty avg players, no superstars, no slouches. HC has daughter on team, but does decent with that aspect. AC not so much.
My concerns are these,
The coach is loyal to the players that have been with him. While I understand that, and even appreciate it, it seems those are the starters, and the few newer players are the ones rotating in and out of 2 or 3 postitions. Team had 11 when we joined, then he added 1 more after us. So 13 now. Coach seems content to keep rotation as is. Most starters play entire games ( pool and brackets ) in 7 or 8 positions, so other 4 girls rotate for last spot. Usually bats 10 in lineup, so may or may not get to bat.
His team, his lineup, his rules. Completely understand that. But why add more players just to sit them? And why not try newer players at different positions, especially when way ahead or way behind. The end goal is to 1-improve, 2-get players ready for next level, 3- win. He has told me that he likes competition at all positions. Maybe I misunderstood what he meant by that, but it should mean the better player plays. For the record, my DD is not always better, trying to be clear on that. This is not a "why is my daughter not playing every inning" type of post. The one thing most everyone on this board agrees with, is that you improve by playing, not watching.
Which brings up my question.
Where should we want our DD to be? Is it better to sit on a good team, and play sparingly, or play on worse team and be full time starter? She has already started mini fall season for school. Again, she is avg player. She is not a D1 prospect, but hopefully good enough to play at some college level one day (mostly for my ego, not expecting scholarship). Quick , good arm, above avg outfielder, avg infielder(mostly 3rd or 1st), below avg hitter. She was offered on 3 different teams for fall, one rejection, one come in spring 21. I'm worried if we stay for spring, it will be more of same, and first full 14u season will be lost. I'm worried if we move to lower level, she will not improve like she should, and get tired of losing, because losing a lot sucks (been there, 0-18).
I'm not loosing sleep over this, and I'm not looking for troll responses. But like most of us, I do want to do what's best for my DD. I have read a ton of great ideas and opinions on this board, so I'm asking for advise.
Sorry for the long post, thanks for reading and any input you may offer.
I am reminded by your post of a SS who used to play local ball and didn't travel at all. She was good but played on a team where another school's SS also played so they split time. Approximately 40 min away was a decent/not great TB program that did try to step in and play those tournaments called "Northern Nationals" or other such titles. Long story short, she made the change. The SS on that team moved to 3B and she became a very good player. Had she stayed comfortable knowing she was playing SS every other game, imo, she would not have made the improvement. Just a thought.
 

Cannonball

Ex "Expert"
Feb 25, 2009
4,181
113
So my DD is in a very similar situation in 18u. She came from a team where she was THE player. Batted lead off for 4 straight years and always hit around .500. Problem was they weren’t very competitive. She attended a tryout last year just to see what else was out there. Got offered on the spot and liked the coach and girls. It is a very competitive team. She had a great last fall and winter then hurt her wrist in the spring. She missed some time and just never got dialed in over summer. Tryouts came and they took on another girl for 13. She’s worked hard and is back to hitting around .400 this fall. Problem is the original girls on the team might get 15 at bats in a weekend while mine may get 6-10 at bats. If she gets in a slump it’s just not enough AB’s to battle out of like she has done in the past and she splits outfield duties with 5 other girls. I wish I had an answer for you lol.
Wow. I didn't read this post until now. I can't believe that there is ANY situation that your dd isn't on the field. She has SO MANY WEAPONS. I have great confidence that she will get more PT. Knowing her drive and competitiveness, I can't see anyone keeping her down. BTW, she can't be old enough for 18U.
 

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