Houston Astros and the limits of sign stealing

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May 29, 2015
3,731
113
So, rather than a video camera and pagers, if the Astros had a "sign stealer" out in center field with a pair of high powered binoculars, and a timpani drum - that is ok?

No. Team personnel participating in the game must be in the dugout (or on the field or in the bullpen).
 
May 29, 2015
3,731
113
No, that would not. It would not be a member of the team or the coaching staff involved in the game and on the field. Please show me the rule book where it says that stealing signs by players and coaches is against the rules. You suggest that it cheating. To cheat, you have to violate a rule of the game.

Please address these two questions:

  1. Is it cheating if a player signals what pitch or location of a pitch while on 2nd Base?
  2. Is it cheating if a batter sees the pitcher tipping pitches and tells the hitter what to look for?

I didn't read all the recent replies before my last post ... that would be a person engaging in coaching and thus would be subject to being on the field/in the dugout/in the bullpen.

There is no rule in MOST rule books against stealing signs on field by the teams engaged in the game. I say most because Little League does expressly prohibit sign stealing.

Oxford dictionary defines "cheat" as:
verb
1.
act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination.
"she always cheats at cards"

2.
avoid (something undesirable) by luck or skill.
"she cheated death in a spectacular crash"

noun
1. a person who behaves dishonestly in order to gain an advantage.

So, no, you do not have to violate a rule to cheat. You have to violate the spirit of fair play, which is where most people against sign stealing hang their hat: unsportsmanlike behavior.
 

Cannonball

Ex "Expert"
Feb 25, 2009
4,854
113
I didn't read all the recent replies before my last post ... that would be a person engaging in coaching and thus would be subject to being on the field/in the dugout/in the bullpen.

There is no rule in MOST rule books against stealing signs on field by the teams engaged in the game. I say most because Little League does expressly prohibit sign stealing.

Oxford dictionary defines "cheat" as:


So, no, you do not have to violate a rule to cheat. You have to violate the spirit of fair play, which is where most people against sign stealing hang their hat: unsportsmanlike behavior.
Ok, fair enough. I looked it up and have different definitions if we are going to use dictionaries. (See below) My take then is that if a coaching staff is so lazy that they can't teach their players how to play the game properly and are so lazy that they give away their signs, then I'll take advantage of their ineptness.

Here is Merriman Webster's Definition of a cheat: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cheat

Definition of cheat
(Entry 1 of 2)
transitive verb
1: to deprive of something valuable by the use of deceit or fraud cheated the elderly couple out of their property
2: to influence or lead by deceit, trick, or artifice a young man who cheated young women into marrying him when he was already married
3: to elude or thwart by or as if by outwitting cheat death
intransitive verb
1a: to practice fraud or trickery denied the accusation that he cheated
b: to violate rules dishonestly cheat at cards cheating on a test
2: to be sexually unfaithful —usually used with onwas cheating on his wife
3: to position oneself defensively near a particular area in anticipation of a play in that areathe shortstop was cheating toward second base

Dictionary.com's definition:

verb (used with object)
to defraud; swindle:He cheated her out of her inheritance.
to deceive; influence by fraud:He cheated us into believing him a hero.
SEE MORE
verb (used without object)
to practice fraud or deceit:She cheats without regrets.
to violate rules or regulations:He cheats at cards.
SEE MORE
noun
a person who acts dishonestly, deceives, or defrauds:He is a cheat and a liar.
a fraud; swindle; deception:The game was a cheat.
 

Strike2

Allergic to BS
Nov 14, 2014
2,044
113
"Stealing signs" using methods not prohibited by rule isn't cheating.

Observing a signal or other tendency and how it correlates to a subsequent action is no more "cheating" than judging where to locate a pitch based on a batter's stance and swing.

One could reasonably argue that in Rec or anything below 12U that it's a waste of energy that should be focused on teaching the game. However, there are some segments of 12U that are highly competitive and, in that enviroment, there's nothing wrong with using what's in plain sight. At 14U or higher, it's not in any way "unsportsmanlike".
 
Oct 14, 2016
77
33
Sometimes I help the opposition steal my signs. When little Sally missed the bunt sign twice in her last at-bat and she has not recognized it again this at-bat, I slow down the sign and yell to her, "Bunt". She does it then. Usually with success, so I often wonder why I bother with signs.

My favorite is when "Daddy Ball Elite 12U/14U" third base coach yells to his batters to "look outside" or "away" so Sally knows that an outside pitch is coming. By the way, his keen insight came from my catcher's shift, not ESP or any other divine way.
 
May 29, 2015
3,731
113
@Cannonball -- I don't disagree that violating rules can be cheating, I'm just saying rules aren't necessary to determine cheating.

Honestly, I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other and am enjoying observing the discussion.

I was a catcher and I played the game. I don't really believe stealing signs is that valuable in most cases. I always viewed it as you failing to be confident in your own ability and thus resorting to this lowly practice (or thinking you were smarter than the game). However I was always happy to "pay it back" when I caught somebody trying it. I'd make sure they could see my signs (which weren't always accurate). As long as you are doing it within the rules, have at it. Just don't be surprised when you go home with an "I stole signs" stamp on your body.

As a coach, I never partook in the shenanigans. Then again, I never coached at a level where it mattered. I would stand at third base and yell "Bunt" or "Steal" and would be lucky if the girls did it a quarter of the time.

As an umpire, just don't violate the rules. Don't come to me complaining as a coach either. Take care of it yourself. Within the rules. I'm saying don't do what I did. Officially.
 

coachjwb

Love this game!
Apr 16, 2014
127
18
Northeast Ohio
All it takes is a good wristband system to prevent someone stealing your signs. As far as stealing other teams' signs, I don't have a problem doing it at the youth level as long as it's the youth doing it, and not the "adults" and especially not the parents.
 
Mar 10, 2020
734
63
Not all people play by the rules. Fact.
Not all people understand there are rules or what they are. Fact.
A lot of the time its the people who think they care the most who break rules. Blame something else.
These posts show off the people who cant differentiate being a participant on the field from a seperate sorce aiding the other.
Opionions become what the rules are to them.
 
Last edited:
May 13, 2008
8
1
In case someone has not been following baseball, the Houston Astros stole signs on their way to a World Series' Championship by using a camera located in CF. Someone in the Astros organization would zoom in on the catcher and figure out the signs used by the other team's catcher. That information would be relayed to Astros players, supposedly by banging a garbage can. There is some evidence that Astro players used a pager attached to their body, so once the sign was located, the batter would be "buzzed" if the next pitch would be a fastball.

Anyway...

The whole Astros sign stealing issue gets to the ethics of sign stealing, and how it relates to youth sports. How far is too far? And, what age group?

These were my ethical guidelines when I coached:

In college, HS, 16U and 18U ball, it seems that "the gloves are off". It is fair for coaches to steal signs or "tells" and relay that info to the batter. Basically, the idea is that the pitcher and catcher are "old enough to know better" and should know how to hide signs. Pitchers should be hiding disguising pitches.

For 14U, it is fair for the coach to point out "tells" to his batters. The coach is teaching batters how to anticipate the pitch by carefully looking at a pitcher's motion and the pitcher's tendencies. However, a coach stealing signs is off-limits. (One of my pet peeves is a 30+ YOA adult bragging how they picked signs from a 14YOA catcher.)

For 12U, the coach should not do anything about sign stealing. The kids should be focused on hitting, base running, throwing, etc., not trying to steal signs.
 
May 13, 2008
8
1
Just a new way to get an advantage. Would have happened years ago if technology had been available.
 

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