No, I don't have to rethink anything. I've been around a long time. I know what I see. TB players also play HS ball, and learned the game playing Rec ball before that. TB is mostly about recruiting good players and putting them together on one team, and there are only so many good players to go around. I would rather see a TB team that took mediocre players and coached them into becoming good players. Those are more rare.
Honest question
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"I agree with everything you said, except that the level of play in HS ball would not be affected much by having no TB. I've been to thee tournaments and I haven't seen much that made me think they were special places where stars were born. For the most part, they featured a lot of average teams and average players. There are very few, if any secret weapons just waiting to be discovered at most showcases."
Let's focus on only what you said in BOLD. This is what I am talking about. I don't think I misunderstood what you said. Everyone here disagreed with what you said. I will give you a chance to reword you statement if you mistyped. If there were no TB, HS ball would be garbage. If there was never TB, there would never be HS ball. HS ball came from TB. You are saying HS ball would "not be affected much" if there were not any TB players on the HS team. This utterly makes no logical sense whatsoever.
Yes in 10u and 12u you have glorified REC ball teams (Hittin' Kittens) playing TB. At 14U and above, it becomes a different game. I don't ever recall seeing a Rec ball pitcher throwing 63mph. Cat Osterman played for the Katy Cruisers TB team. Not the KGSA (Katy Girls Softball Association) or CFGSA (Cy Fair Girls Softball Association) Plain and Simple: TB players make the HS teams better. All kids start at Rec ball and move on as their skill increases. I can confidently say that EVERY 16U TB team will BEAT a HS team made up of all Rec ball players 100% of time. Am I wrong?
As I stated previously, my GF in college (early 1990's) got recruited to play college ball through TB. There was NO HS ball teams in all of Texas at that time.
Now let's talk about this next statement.
"I would rather see a TB team that took mediocre players and coached them into becoming good players. Those are more rare."
What are you talking about? This is exactly what happens in TB. This not rare at all. There are tons of mediocre players playing TB. It's all relative. I was just at the Texas Gold Cup last weekend. I was at the fields where you have some of the top teams in the country. They also have other divisions playing at other fields. Those teams are not the best teams. Those teams are full of good players and mediocre players getting better, working their way to the better fields. Some of those players might even end up one of these awesome teams. 95% of every player in that tournament will find a college team if they want to. Just like in TB, there are different levels of colleges too.
Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Take me to a random HS game and I will tell you with 95% accuracy which players play travel and which don't. No, not all travel players are D1 talent, but almost all are far more skilled than the average HS player who only plays during the HS season. When you say "all they really offer is more opportunity to play and additional instruction", that's kind of the whole point.
- Jun 20, 2015
- 851
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who in their right mind thinks the majority of HS teams without travel players can even remotely compete? regardless of the actual level of the TB team that any player is on, the additional practice and reps, will improve all players skill versus the 2-3 month only player. In my local school, if a player isn't playing travel, they won't have the skill to make JV nor Varsity. Hell, most years they are cutting TB players as well.
- Jun 8, 2016
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- 113
I guess the question is assuming there was summer ball of some form (think back to ancient times when I played and summer baseball LL/Pony/Babe Ruth/Legion etc..travel really only occurred when you made All Stars and you kept winning or if you advanced in the Legion playoffs..although we did travel a decent amount in Legion) how much better are the HS teams now that we have TB vs then. Perhaps that is what @PDM was getting at? Lets say everybody played on local summer teams and the ability to play teams from outside the region was limited. Of course other things are better now as well (strength training, individual instruction, access to indoor facilities in the winter for colder weather regions...etc but those are not necessarily TB "features") so it isn't an apples to apples comparison
In general TB definitely has three differences than the local team model of years past which could possibly improve you over the previous local model:
a) ability to play with kids outside your area (may or may not improve you depending on how good those kids are)
b) ability to play teams outside your region (doesn't guarantee that those teams are at a level which will do much to improve you
c) definitely more games (and probably more innings..there was no time limit on games in yesteryear hence you usually had more innings per game)
I didn't mention coaching because there were good coaches 35 years ago just like there are now so while perhaps the coaching has improved (for a number of reasons) I don't want to put it in the "definite" bin...
There is also the issue that kids used to play a lot more ball outside of organized activities which probably has to get factored into the equation..might not be as much of a factor for females...I never saw any females playing pickup softball games where I grew up...
Overall I think in general the overall pecking order of players wouldn't change much, the best players now would have been the best players 35 years, etc. I also think that most players now benefit (in terms of being better) from TB. However I don't think the benefit is equal, the best players (through the ability to play against consistent good competition and with other really good players) probably have improved more over 35 years ago then the middle of the pack and lower end players (assuming equal access to the other things which I mentioned above which have helped players improve..which may be a lousy assumption...)
So based on the bolded above, I believe that the quality of HS teams has improved in general for teams that have a good number of TB players. For teams that don't, even assuming they play local team ball, then it probably has gotten worse because the quality of local ball has definitely taken a hit over the years...
On a personal note, I will say that I actually chose to play in a Pony League a few towns over rather than my local Sr. LL when I was 13 because it was a better league and also because I went to HS where my father taught, I was able (and chose) to play on a better Legion team then the town where I lived..that is to say that many players have always sought out the best..it is just now that the options are much more abundant (and expensive...lol)
In general TB definitely has three differences than the local team model of years past which could possibly improve you over the previous local model:
a) ability to play with kids outside your area (may or may not improve you depending on how good those kids are)
b) ability to play teams outside your region (doesn't guarantee that those teams are at a level which will do much to improve you
c) definitely more games (and probably more innings..there was no time limit on games in yesteryear hence you usually had more innings per game)
I didn't mention coaching because there were good coaches 35 years ago just like there are now so while perhaps the coaching has improved (for a number of reasons) I don't want to put it in the "definite" bin...
There is also the issue that kids used to play a lot more ball outside of organized activities which probably has to get factored into the equation..might not be as much of a factor for females...I never saw any females playing pickup softball games where I grew up...
Overall I think in general the overall pecking order of players wouldn't change much, the best players now would have been the best players 35 years, etc. I also think that most players now benefit (in terms of being better) from TB. However I don't think the benefit is equal, the best players (through the ability to play against consistent good competition and with other really good players) probably have improved more over 35 years ago then the middle of the pack and lower end players (assuming equal access to the other things which I mentioned above which have helped players improve..which may be a lousy assumption...)
So based on the bolded above, I believe that the quality of HS teams has improved in general for teams that have a good number of TB players. For teams that don't, even assuming they play local team ball, then it probably has gotten worse because the quality of local ball has definitely taken a hit over the years...
On a personal note, I will say that I actually chose to play in a Pony League a few towns over rather than my local Sr. LL when I was 13 because it was a better league and also because I went to HS where my father taught, I was able (and chose) to play on a better Legion team then the town where I lived..that is to say that many players have always sought out the best..it is just now that the options are much more abundant (and expensive...lol)
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I find it interesting that you've seen things so very differently than what I've seen. In the 7 years my DD has been playing TB, I've watched more players than I can count develop and improve their skills as a direct result of the coaching and reps they were getting at the TB level. This was most vivid in 12U, but I've also seen it at the 18U level.
Looking at the girls my DD played 8U and 10U rec all-stars with, and didn't make the move to TB, the number of them that were better players than the worst player on any of my DD's TB teams is...
...zero.
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This past weekend DD's 14U team played against a high school varsity team that had no TB players. DD's team is solid but not great, yet they easily outclassed the HS team. The difference in skill was painfully obvious.
100% expected.
@PDM
Been reading through your comments, and I think I can see where the disconnect is: you are drawing the right conclusions from what you are seeing in your area, but what you are seeing isn't the whole picture.
It's true that many TB teams do not focus on player development. Here on DFP we call those assembler teams, whose coaches seek out the best talent in their area, try to convince them to come play on their team, and then ruthlessly upgrade whenever and wherever they can (see the recent thread on player poaching). Sometimes this strategy works out (Corona Angels), sometimes not.
But not all TB teams are like this. Many focus on player development, taking in the best talent they can, and then training these players to become the best they can be. This is much longer and much harder road for the coaches, and not nearly as profitable or prestigious (at least not initially). Often, the payoffs don't come until 18U, and even then, there are no sure bets, as the best players on regional-level developmental teams will often migrate to national-level assembler teams at 16U for the purpose of recruiting, thereby weakening the developmental team, making them appear less successful than they are.
Seems like what you are seeing in your area is a cluster of assembler teams, with HS players who aren't learning or growing much. The parents on these teams are indeed getting ripped off and the players themselves are getting short-changed if they have strong developmental needs (i.e. they need more than just playing time in order to become competitive at a national or regional level) because the coaches aren't being honest about the type of program. Or maybe the coaches have huge egos and just don't care; they will chew through as many players as needed in pursuit of a national-level team and reputation. But the teams aren't there yet, so as they try to enter national-level tournaments, they get put on the back fields, where few college coaches will find them. Or they play more regional tournaments where the level of play is average. Looks unimpressive because it is. And you'd be right - players on these assembler teams would be TB players in name only and being a "TB player" like this will make them better than the average HS player, but by not as much as a developmental program would.
But if you went and saw true high level A ball, with most players destined for WCWS schools, you would know it. It's a far cry from most HS softball and even quite a jump from slightly lower A ball, i.e. PGF Premier vs Platinum, Tier 1 vs Tier 2 Alliance.
Been reading through your comments, and I think I can see where the disconnect is: you are drawing the right conclusions from what you are seeing in your area, but what you are seeing isn't the whole picture.
It's true that many TB teams do not focus on player development. Here on DFP we call those assembler teams, whose coaches seek out the best talent in their area, try to convince them to come play on their team, and then ruthlessly upgrade whenever and wherever they can (see the recent thread on player poaching). Sometimes this strategy works out (Corona Angels), sometimes not.
But not all TB teams are like this. Many focus on player development, taking in the best talent they can, and then training these players to become the best they can be. This is much longer and much harder road for the coaches, and not nearly as profitable or prestigious (at least not initially). Often, the payoffs don't come until 18U, and even then, there are no sure bets, as the best players on regional-level developmental teams will often migrate to national-level assembler teams at 16U for the purpose of recruiting, thereby weakening the developmental team, making them appear less successful than they are.
Seems like what you are seeing in your area is a cluster of assembler teams, with HS players who aren't learning or growing much. The parents on these teams are indeed getting ripped off and the players themselves are getting short-changed if they have strong developmental needs (i.e. they need more than just playing time in order to become competitive at a national or regional level) because the coaches aren't being honest about the type of program. Or maybe the coaches have huge egos and just don't care; they will chew through as many players as needed in pursuit of a national-level team and reputation. But the teams aren't there yet, so as they try to enter national-level tournaments, they get put on the back fields, where few college coaches will find them. Or they play more regional tournaments where the level of play is average. Looks unimpressive because it is. And you'd be right - players on these assembler teams would be TB players in name only and being a "TB player" like this will make them better than the average HS player, but by not as much as a developmental program would.
But if you went and saw true high level A ball, with most players destined for WCWS schools, you would know it. It's a far cry from most HS softball and even quite a jump from slightly lower A ball, i.e. PGF Premier vs Platinum, Tier 1 vs Tier 2 Alliance.
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