Board I appreciate your efforts and I know they are highly beneficial for many reading this thread but Tom has been exposed to everything and this is what he has come up with. Maybe if he actually taught people he would come to different conclusions but I'd be willing to give odds he wouldn't.
Hitting with one arm
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BM-
Thanks for exhibiting a willingness to stick primarily to content.
The inertia you describe is fine for a swing without significant reaction time limits as with golf and slopitch.
It MAY be workable with nonwoodbats and women's fastpitch closing speed, and is a very reasonable otion there if the player does not have good 2 pkane/high level overhand throw mechanics.
Learning a good overhand thor early is where you usually learn the 2 plane motion where somewhat separate upper and lower body programs are blended (golf is another place IF you happen to get a 2 plane instructor telling you thins like swing down and don't turn the shoulders starting down,etc).
The 2 plane swing is the nearly exclusive type seen in successful MLB power hitters as described by many authorities, none of whom emphasize active shoulder turn.
The inertia needs to be overcome via running start of te barrell with a coiling of the body with the front leg and hips clearing as the hands stay back, then shoulders need to support the running start of the barell by tilting, not turning.
The loading/preparatory action is controlled by back arm action/sequence that is same as good overhand throw. The actual "throw" is different, BUT you need the preparatory arm action to learn the way to throw in the swing and ow it differs from the unloading of the throw.
This loading phase is slow and not dependent on reading pitch location, so it can be taught very well via choreographed forward chaining.
This can be used with backward chaining for throwing and hitting and leverages learning nicely.
I have experience playing and coaching both throwing and hitting at men's D1 level in woodbat era and transition to metal bat as well as more recently women and girls fastpitch, especially a lot of videoanalysis support of high school travel and colege coaches which can be very time consuming,
The young ones are the most challenging and rewarding.
You have a good experience in golf and windmill and the swing, BUT you lack the overhand throw understanding that is necessary to teach many a good MLB pattern.
Good resources for understanding this are Hodge, Nman and Wolforth.
As compared to your illustrations, look at this double pendulum model and see what is different about the unloading of the second pendulum/bat when it has a running start, not just "holding torque", but a running start:
Double Pendulum
I would be happy to help you understand what happens in the overhand throw if you get stuck.
Thanks for exhibiting a willingness to stick primarily to content.
The inertia you describe is fine for a swing without significant reaction time limits as with golf and slopitch.
It MAY be workable with nonwoodbats and women's fastpitch closing speed, and is a very reasonable otion there if the player does not have good 2 pkane/high level overhand throw mechanics.
Learning a good overhand thor early is where you usually learn the 2 plane motion where somewhat separate upper and lower body programs are blended (golf is another place IF you happen to get a 2 plane instructor telling you thins like swing down and don't turn the shoulders starting down,etc).
The 2 plane swing is the nearly exclusive type seen in successful MLB power hitters as described by many authorities, none of whom emphasize active shoulder turn.
The inertia needs to be overcome via running start of te barrell with a coiling of the body with the front leg and hips clearing as the hands stay back, then shoulders need to support the running start of the barell by tilting, not turning.
The loading/preparatory action is controlled by back arm action/sequence that is same as good overhand throw. The actual "throw" is different, BUT you need the preparatory arm action to learn the way to throw in the swing and ow it differs from the unloading of the throw.
This loading phase is slow and not dependent on reading pitch location, so it can be taught very well via choreographed forward chaining.
This can be used with backward chaining for throwing and hitting and leverages learning nicely.
I have experience playing and coaching both throwing and hitting at men's D1 level in woodbat era and transition to metal bat as well as more recently women and girls fastpitch, especially a lot of videoanalysis support of high school travel and colege coaches which can be very time consuming,
The young ones are the most challenging and rewarding.
You have a good experience in golf and windmill and the swing, BUT you lack the overhand throw understanding that is necessary to teach many a good MLB pattern.
Good resources for understanding this are Hodge, Nman and Wolforth.
As compared to your illustrations, look at this double pendulum model and see what is different about the unloading of the second pendulum/bat when it has a running start, not just "holding torque", but a running start:
Double Pendulum
I would be happy to help you understand what happens in the overhand throw if you get stuck.
BM-
With regard to the pujols comparison, pujols is torquing/casting the bathead early without unhinging the wrist. this involves resistance which allows him to control separation as front leg and then hips open (clear/coil before GO) while the hands stay back.
the "novice" is pushing the hands which prevents them from staying back and prevents adequate torso loading or control of loading.
mankin is describing early handle torque without unhinging the wrists.
that is what you need to focus on in the MLB pattern as opposed to casting the hands or casting the bathead by unhinging.
With regard to the pujols comparison, pujols is torquing/casting the bathead early without unhinging the wrist. this involves resistance which allows him to control separation as front leg and then hips open (clear/coil before GO) while the hands stay back.
the "novice" is pushing the hands which prevents them from staying back and prevents adequate torso loading or control of loading.
mankin is describing early handle torque without unhinging the wrists.
that is what you need to focus on in the MLB pattern as opposed to casting the hands or casting the bathead by unhinging.
BM -
this is one of the MOST important findings from Mankin, the way the swing radius and amount of early handle torque are varied together. more early toque accelerates bathead and at same time stretches lead arm.
for "proof" (that pesky irwin cory buddy of mine ray porco always wants proof) try some hacks.
http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/21370.html
MANKIN:
The change in the batter’s initiation that programs the swing is controlled mainly by the direction of pull of the top hand. In other words, the direction of pull of the top hand at initiation sets up trajectories (of the bat, limbs and body) that control the balance of the swing.
As an example - say the pitchers mound is at 6 o’clock and the plate is at 12 o’clock - On an inside pitch the direction of pull of the top hand is in tight, say at 1 o’clock, the back elbow will come almost straight down to the batters side before little rotation of the shoulders can occur. The pulling back of the back-hand keeps the lead-arm across the chest and generates a tight hand-path and thus a low-load resistance to shoulder rotation. The back elbow coming fairly straight down with little body rotation means less top-hand-torque was developed and the batters finishes the swing with a lot lead shoulder pull and bottom-hand-torque.
On a pitch more in the middle 2/3’s of the plate, the pull of the top hand is more straight-away - or at 12 o’clock. With a more straight-away pull, the shoulders rotate a few degrees as the back elbow lowers to the batter’s side allowing a greater amount of top-hand-torque to be applied. This direction of pull also causes the lead arm to cast slightly away from the chest and generates a somewhat wider hand-path. A wider hand-path generates greater bat speed and a higher load resistance to rotation. Less shoulder rotation means less bottom-hand-torque. So on the pitch in the mid-part of the plate, what we wind up with is greater bat speed from a wider hand-path and more balance between bottom and top-hand-torque being applied.
On recognizing an outside pitch, the batters pull of the top hand is more away from center - or at 11 o’clock. This direction of pull causes the back elbow to sweep some distance before full body rotation begins and the elbow lowers. This allows top-hand-torque to be applied over a much greater portion of the swing. This direction of pull also causes the lead arm to cast out farther and develops a wide hand-path and thus a heavy resistant load to rotation. The greater load limits shoulder rotation which equates to less bottom-hand-torque being applied. So, on the outside pitch the swing produces a wide hand-path with a lot of top-hand-torque and little bottom-hand-torque. – With less shoulder rotation on outside pitches, the lead leg may not be fully extended while the back-arm becomes more extended.
----
and:
Hi Ray
When I was charting swings, I noted that with some hitters, the sweeping path the back-elbow took as it lowered varied from one swing to another. At first, I thought this was just an inconsistency in their swing. However, after seeing this occur in other good rotational hitters, I decided there must be a reason for the different elbow trajectories.
After taking a few swings, it made sense that on inside pitches my elbow lowered more directly to the side and needed to sweep out wider before lowering on outside pitches. I also noted that to generate a tighter path for inside pitches, I needed to pull the top-hand back more toward the third base dugout. On outside pitches, pulling the forearm (and top-hand) straighter back toward the catcher generated the wider path needed.
This may not be the proof you require but it is the basis for my post.
Jack Mankin
======
I agree with mankin here and position of back elbow is a good marker.
rql has described things in a similar way.
this is one of the MOST important findings from Mankin, the way the swing radius and amount of early handle torque are varied together. more early toque accelerates bathead and at same time stretches lead arm.
for "proof" (that pesky irwin cory buddy of mine ray porco always wants proof) try some hacks.
http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/21370.html
MANKIN:
The change in the batter’s initiation that programs the swing is controlled mainly by the direction of pull of the top hand. In other words, the direction of pull of the top hand at initiation sets up trajectories (of the bat, limbs and body) that control the balance of the swing.
As an example - say the pitchers mound is at 6 o’clock and the plate is at 12 o’clock - On an inside pitch the direction of pull of the top hand is in tight, say at 1 o’clock, the back elbow will come almost straight down to the batters side before little rotation of the shoulders can occur. The pulling back of the back-hand keeps the lead-arm across the chest and generates a tight hand-path and thus a low-load resistance to shoulder rotation. The back elbow coming fairly straight down with little body rotation means less top-hand-torque was developed and the batters finishes the swing with a lot lead shoulder pull and bottom-hand-torque.
On a pitch more in the middle 2/3’s of the plate, the pull of the top hand is more straight-away - or at 12 o’clock. With a more straight-away pull, the shoulders rotate a few degrees as the back elbow lowers to the batter’s side allowing a greater amount of top-hand-torque to be applied. This direction of pull also causes the lead arm to cast slightly away from the chest and generates a somewhat wider hand-path. A wider hand-path generates greater bat speed and a higher load resistance to rotation. Less shoulder rotation means less bottom-hand-torque. So on the pitch in the mid-part of the plate, what we wind up with is greater bat speed from a wider hand-path and more balance between bottom and top-hand-torque being applied.
On recognizing an outside pitch, the batters pull of the top hand is more away from center - or at 11 o’clock. This direction of pull causes the back elbow to sweep some distance before full body rotation begins and the elbow lowers. This allows top-hand-torque to be applied over a much greater portion of the swing. This direction of pull also causes the lead arm to cast out farther and develops a wide hand-path and thus a heavy resistant load to rotation. The greater load limits shoulder rotation which equates to less bottom-hand-torque being applied. So, on the outside pitch the swing produces a wide hand-path with a lot of top-hand-torque and little bottom-hand-torque. – With less shoulder rotation on outside pitches, the lead leg may not be fully extended while the back-arm becomes more extended.
----
and:
Hi Ray
When I was charting swings, I noted that with some hitters, the sweeping path the back-elbow took as it lowered varied from one swing to another. At first, I thought this was just an inconsistency in their swing. However, after seeing this occur in other good rotational hitters, I decided there must be a reason for the different elbow trajectories.
After taking a few swings, it made sense that on inside pitches my elbow lowered more directly to the side and needed to sweep out wider before lowering on outside pitches. I also noted that to generate a tighter path for inside pitches, I needed to pull the top-hand back more toward the third base dugout. On outside pitches, pulling the forearm (and top-hand) straighter back toward the catcher generated the wider path needed.
This may not be the proof you require but it is the basis for my post.
Jack Mankin
======
I agree with mankin here and position of back elbow is a good marker.
rql has described things in a similar way.
jack v jja on torque;
http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/42451.html
and don't forget;
http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/160558.html
as Jack says, it helps to keep an open mind:
Tom, I have read with interest your attempts to enlighten readers of other sites of the value of applying torque to increase bat speed. However, if they cannot understand the simple concept that just rotating the back-forearm (torque) as the elbow lowers during initiation induces added angular bat displacement, there is little hope your attempts will fall on open minds.
Jack Mankin
http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/42451.html
and don't forget;
http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/160558.html
as Jack says, it helps to keep an open mind:
Tom, I have read with interest your attempts to enlighten readers of other sites of the value of applying torque to increase bat speed. However, if they cannot understand the simple concept that just rotating the back-forearm (torque) as the elbow lowers during initiation induces added angular bat displacement, there is little hope your attempts will fall on open minds.
Jack Mankin
BM-
I thought you might like this Hogan advice:
Ben says this:
At address hold the dog between your legs tight
On the downswing, let him go ... and
At before impact catch his tail as it leaves.
I thought you might like this Hogan advice:
Ben says this:
At address hold the dog between your legs tight
On the downswing, let him go ... and
At before impact catch his tail as it leaves.
