...and correct me if I'm wrong, but as soon as the ball enters the circle, the runner on 3rd has to either go for home or retreat to third - she can't be hanging out in the middle or she's out. Assuming she retreats, when the pitcher throws to the second baseman, she goes (but has to run the full 60' now). I can see why she's a dead duck.
Go to 2nd on a walk
- Thread starter EJL
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If the pitcher has the ball in the circle, and the runner/batter turns at 1B, then the runner either must immediately go to 2B OR return immediately to 1B. If the runner hesitates, then the runner is out. If the runner attempts to go to 2B, and the pitcher throws the ball out of the circle, then the runner can return to 1B, in which case you have a run down.
In your case, it sounds like the umpire was wrong. The runner can make the turn at 1B, and then return to 1B without being called out, even if the pitcher has the ball in the circle.
At the upper levels, the rule is rarely used. As soon as the kids can throw the ball around the infield with confidence, no one ventures off the base very far when the pitcher has the ball. The catcher will gun them down.
In your case, it sounds like the umpire was wrong. The runner can make the turn at 1B, and then return to 1B without being called out, even if the pitcher has the ball in the circle.
At the upper levels, the rule is rarely used. As soon as the kids can throw the ball around the infield with confidence, no one ventures off the base very far when the pitcher has the ball. The catcher will gun them down.
- Dec 28, 2008
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I'm lucky the girls I work with are in the state of GA and there is only 1 ball on the field at a time. I'd hate to have to teach base running in parks where the pitcher has the ball, but you still have to worry about the catcher gunning you down.
Seriously though ... No doubt you won't see girls run at will as they get older, but aggressive base runners will try to push things and try to draw throws they will not just assume that everyone on the field will make perfect throws everytime.
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Sluggers,
The way it was explained to me was that if the pitcher is in circle with possesion of the ball and the runner even turns towards 2nd then they are committed to go to 2nd. They are not allowed to return to 1st at all. If this is wrong then the ump was wrong. I will have to get better clarification this season.
Also you are correct Steve. I was told if the 3rd base runner is off the bag wen the pitcher gains control of ball in circle then the runner has 3 seconds to either run home or retreat to 3rd. If pitcher throws ball out of circle to make a play anywhere then it is game on. But as was stated earlier with an infield that can throw hard and catch the runner is probably an easy out.
As I stated earlier I am new to this so hopefully I will learn more about the rules and proper instruction as I continue to read and reread as many posts as I can.
Thanks!
The way it was explained to me was that if the pitcher is in circle with possesion of the ball and the runner even turns towards 2nd then they are committed to go to 2nd. They are not allowed to return to 1st at all. If this is wrong then the ump was wrong. I will have to get better clarification this season.
Also you are correct Steve. I was told if the 3rd base runner is off the bag wen the pitcher gains control of ball in circle then the runner has 3 seconds to either run home or retreat to 3rd. If pitcher throws ball out of circle to make a play anywhere then it is game on. But as was stated earlier with an infield that can throw hard and catch the runner is probably an easy out.
As I stated earlier I am new to this so hopefully I will learn more about the rules and proper instruction as I continue to read and reread as many posts as I can.
Thanks!
- Dec 28, 2008
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The LOOK BACK rule is very ambiguous in its wordings and leaves room for umpires nationwide to interpret as they would like so don't EVER expect that even the same umpires on the same day will call it the same.
I've heard umpires claim that the pitchers "fake throw" constituted "an attempt" and a runner was allowed to jump around. While to other umpires a "fake throw" is clearly not an attempt since an attempt means the player could have gotten out and clearly with a "fake throw" the runner would never have been out in a million years.
Another umpire allowed a girl to stand there (could be your 3 second umpire) and said that girls have to have the time to mentally decide who really has the ball and allowed a "deer in the headlights" to be called safe.
Yet to other umpires I've seen girls coming from second merely round the base at third and look to find the ball and end up being called out because the throw went to the pitcher so they said she had to keep going home because she went off of third towards home while the pitcher had the ball and they didn't even allow room for rounding.
I've been around this game year round for 13 years and each game I can't wait to see how it will be called. That's what makes the game exciting.
I've heard umpires claim that the pitchers "fake throw" constituted "an attempt" and a runner was allowed to jump around. While to other umpires a "fake throw" is clearly not an attempt since an attempt means the player could have gotten out and clearly with a "fake throw" the runner would never have been out in a million years.
Another umpire allowed a girl to stand there (could be your 3 second umpire) and said that girls have to have the time to mentally decide who really has the ball and allowed a "deer in the headlights" to be called safe.
Yet to other umpires I've seen girls coming from second merely round the base at third and look to find the ball and end up being called out because the throw went to the pitcher so they said she had to keep going home because she went off of third towards home while the pitcher had the ball and they didn't even allow room for rounding.
I've been around this game year round for 13 years and each game I can't wait to see how it will be called. That's what makes the game exciting.
Well maybe better late than never. I made up a bunch of drills on a disk for my teams and we work on this one with the younger team.
Mark hit the nail on the head when he mentioned that it's a game of catch. If you can't throw and catch you are not going to be successful.
You can see this drill we work on here. In the slow motion mode I forgot to say for the pitcher to throw the ball when the runners foot hits the bag. You can pause, go backward and forward one frame at a time with the controls.
Mark hit the nail on the head when he mentioned that it's a game of catch. If you can't throw and catch you are not going to be successful.
You can see this drill we work on here. In the slow motion mode I forgot to say for the pitcher to throw the ball when the runners foot hits the bag. You can pause, go backward and forward one frame at a time with the controls.
- Jul 28, 2008
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John,
In your video, R3 should be called out because she did not return 3rd or advance home while the pitcher had the ball in the circle. Many umpires will give them to a count of 3 before they call them out.
Good video on how to defend the continuation play, though.
- Jan 15, 2009
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I'd argue that you can't tell from the video if R3 should be called out. Without being able to establish if the pitcher has the ball down or if the pitcher is sitting in a cocked and ready to throw position. We tell our pitcher on this play to get the ball down right away and stare 3B back to the bag. This gets the umps attention and if the runner doesn't retreat before R1 gets to first then R3 will probably get called out. After retreat of R3, then focus on R1 and try to make the play if it's there.
We do it a little differently. The ball comes back to the circle, and the pitcher moves to the back of the circle and stands there. The SS comes to the first base side of second, about five feet over, and waits. If the batter/runner breaks for second the pitcher waits, then wheels and throws to get her out.
Even though it makes for a longer throw, the reason I like it this way is it forces R3 to go back. Even if she walks back, she's moving away from home. If she lets down we can always go for the pick there.
Execute it right and it's a free out. Of course, it depends on your SS being able to make a strong throw home -- easier at the older ages.
Even though it makes for a longer throw, the reason I like it this way is it forces R3 to go back. Even if she walks back, she's moving away from home. If she lets down we can always go for the pick there.
Execute it right and it's a free out. Of course, it depends on your SS being able to make a strong throw home -- easier at the older ages.
- Dec 3, 2008
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When the ball is in the circle, the batter who just walked has the option of stopping at first base or continuing on to second base.
IF the pitcher makes no attempt on her, she must continue all the way to second base without pausing. (And, why wouldn't you, if no attempt was made?)
IF the pitcher does make an attempt to play on her -- or on the runner at 3B -- the play is still live and the runners can feel free to dance around until the play comes to an end (ie. someone is out, or everyone is safe).
The most important part of this rule is that the batter must continue in a fluid motion. Often, on a base hit, we will have a batter run through first base and fluidly (without pausing) walk back toward first base. If the pitcher loses focus early, and the SS is walking away from 2B, we'll take off to second base.
IF the pitcher makes no attempt on her, she must continue all the way to second base without pausing. (And, why wouldn't you, if no attempt was made?)
IF the pitcher does make an attempt to play on her -- or on the runner at 3B -- the play is still live and the runners can feel free to dance around until the play comes to an end (ie. someone is out, or everyone is safe).
The most important part of this rule is that the batter must continue in a fluid motion. Often, on a base hit, we will have a batter run through first base and fluidly (without pausing) walk back toward first base. If the pitcher loses focus early, and the SS is walking away from 2B, we'll take off to second base.
