Fly Rule for a Dummy

[Mike Hurd]

But the batter is out no matter what.....caught or dropped.....correct??

No, not always. If the fly ball is not caught or touched by the fielder and then rolls foul before passing 1B or 3B, it is a foul ball and the batter stays up to bat.

 

[The Man In Blue]

How many times have you seen the two runners standing on 2B scenario?

On an infield fly? Honestly, I don't think ever. I could be wrong, but I don't recall it ever happening. In my experience, the runner usually turns back around for first when she doesn't see the runner at second going.

I've got a good one that I think I have told on here before though (to some good debate on our call) ... at the risk of digressing I won't tell the whole story ...

8th grade Regional game ... bases loaded, no outs.

Pop up on the infield, my partner (bases) is pointing up and I'm pointing up and yelling "Batter is out! Infield fly!" Of course ... the runners are all running ... and the ball is dropped by F6.

The coaches are yelling conflicting instructions (this is why you should not be an air traffic controller -- teach your players to think, not to be trained monkeys) ... R3 scores (from third), R2 moves to third (from second), and R1 (from first) is on second base. At that point, R1 registers "I heard the coach say get back" so she starts to run back to first base. F6 picks up the ball and makes a play on R1 going to first, and of course overthrows the ball.

R2 now heads home from third. R1 turns back around to go back to second. Finally it all simmers down and I call time. I call my partner in.

"Larry ... was she ON second base safely?"
"Yeah, she was standing on the bag. So she can't go back."
"That's what I'm thinking. I'm calling her out for running the bases backwards and drawing the throw. The second runner who scored will go back to third."

Infield flies are cool things, man!

That's where the fun began with the coach (who was already up 12-0) ... but that's another story.

 

[The Man In Blue]

No, not always. If the fly ball is not caught or touched by the fielder and then rolls foul before passing 1B or 3B, it is a foul ball and the batter stays up to bat.

Well ... yeah, there's that.

 

[jackfrost]

"Larry ... was she ON second base safely?"
"Yeah, she was standing on the bag. So she can't go back."
"That's what I'm thinking. I'm calling her out for running the bases backwards and drawing the throw. The second runner who scored will go back to third."

I don't see why you call her out for returning to 1st base. Both NFHS (2015 book) and USA (2020 book) say "A runner shall not run bases in reverse order either to confuse the fielders or to make a travesty of the game". The runner may have been confused herself, but she was not trying to confuse the fielders nor was she trying to make a travesty of the game. As you described the situation, the runner herself was confused and simply trying to get to the base she thought she was supposed to be at.

I've seen this argument before and folks get on both sides, but simply reversing direction and going to a preceding base, even if they touched the forward base, should not be an automatic out. Were they trying to confuse the defense, No. Were they making a travesty of the game, No. I think you still have a viable runner.

I also don't see a difference if she actually got to second base or if she got close to second base before she turned around. In either case, the way you described the play, the runner herself was confused and she was not trying to confuse anyone else nor was she making a travesty of the game.

 

[The Man In Blue]

I've had the same discussion numerous times on this play ... I think we even did it here.

Here is my take:

The infield fly was clear and evident by the situation. Not that it matters, but the umpires clearly and appropriately made the call.

Once the infield fly is invoked, runners run at their own peril (or benefit). The runner safely obtained second base, and all runners in front of her safely advanced (more on that in a moment).

Once all runners have safely advanced, they have no reason to retreat. (Personally, I wish the rule would be re-worded to reflect this, but it still contains archaic language.) Had the defense NOT made a play on her, I would have let the play stand and left her on first base and the runner on third base ... but she did confuse the defense into making a play which would have benefited the offense (the runner on third scored).

Yes, her coach tried making the same argument -- that she did it because she was dumb (his actual words). Regardless of her motivation, it DID confuse the defense into making a play that allowed another runner to advance.

Out.

Now ... had ANY of the runners in front of her NOT fully advanced, she would still have the right -- nay, the requirement -- to retreat as she would not have been entitled to safely hold second base. But since all runners had safely attained the next base, none had the right to go back.

Had she not reached second base before turning around, first base would have been her last legally occupied base and she would have been fine to return. Since she was "standing on second" and all runners had legally advanced, second base was her last legally occupied base.

 

[jackfrost]

I've had the same discussion numerous times on this play ... I think we even did it here.

Here is my take:

The infield fly was clear and evident by the situation. Not that it matters, but the umpires clearly and appropriately made the call.

Once the infield fly is invoked, runners run at their own peril (or benefit). The runner safely obtained second base, and all runners in front of her safely advanced (more on that in a moment).

Once all runners have safely advanced, they have no reason to retreat. (Personally, I wish the rule would be re-worded to reflect this, but it still contains archaic language.) Had the defense NOT made a play on her, I would have let the play stand and left her on first base and the runner on third base ... but she did confuse the defense into making a play which would have benefited the offense (the runner on third scored).

Yes, her coach tried making the same argument -- that she did it because she was dumb (his actual words). Regardless of her motivation, it DID confuse the defense into making a play that allowed another runner to advance.

Out.

Now ... had ANY of the runners in front of her NOT fully advanced, she would still have the right -- nay, the requirement -- to retreat as she would not have been entitled to safely hold second base. But since all runners had safely attained the next base, none had the right to go back.

Had she not reached second base before turning around, first base would have been her last legally occupied base and she would have been fine to return. Since she was "standing on second" and all runners had legally advanced, second base was her last legally occupied base.

Like you say this discussion has happened before so I'm not going to drag it out. I'll just say all the arguments you are making are not using any of the words in the books. I have not seen any case plays on this topic so no help there. If you have any that would be a help.

 

[Comp]

Just because something the offense did confused the defense does not make a dumb runner retreating to a previous base an automatic out call. This would go along with the ruling on a batter running on a dropped 3rd strike with less than 2 outs and first base occupied. The defense is responsible for knowing the situation and making the appropriate play.

Whats the difference? A runner is off base and is liable to be put out and the defense made a play. Why would you rule it any differently than a situation where there were runners on 1st and 3rd and the runner at 1st made a fake attempt to advance to get the defense to play on them and score the runner from 3rd?

 

[umpwally]

The infield fly rule is often miscomprehended by both players, coaches and , in fact , some umpires. Dropped infield flys tend to compound the confusion. We have all seen the hectic, deer in headlights, helter skelter running that occurs after an infield fly is dropped. Of all the many times I have seen this happen, not once have I ever considered this type of reaction to be a choreographed intentional attempt to confuse the defense. I’d agree with the coach on this one.

 

[The Man In Blue]

Just because something the offense did confused the defense does not make a dumb runner retreating to a previous base an automatic out call. This would go along with the ruling on a batter running on a dropped 3rd strike with less than 2 outs and first base occupied. The defense is responsible for knowing the situation and making the appropriate play.

Whats the difference? A runner is off base and is liable to be put out and the defense made a play. Why would you rule it any differently than a situation where there were runners on 1st and 3rd and the runner at 1st made a fake attempt to advance to get the defense to play on them and score the runner from 3rd?

Running the bases in reverse order is a specific rule. An uncaught third strike is explicitly exempted on the “confusing the defense” provisions. It is different in multiple ways.

By your statement Comp, the defense cannot be confused by definition in ANY circumstance (they always should know), so why would the rules on that exist?

So are you guys going to let the runner on second steal first base on the next pitch?

 

[The Man In Blue]

The infield fly rule is often miscomprehended by both players, coaches and , in fact , some umpires. Dropped infield flys tend to compound the confusion. We have all seen the hectic, deer in headlights, helter skelter running that occurs after an infield fly is dropped. Of all the many times I have seen this happen, not once have I ever considered this type of reaction to be a choreographed intentional attempt to confuse the defense. I’d agree with the coach on this one.

None of which is illegal. Running the bases in reverse order and confusing the defense is.