Elbows

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May 7, 2008
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Ken,

Simple and complicated are relative terms...could you define them so I can better answer your question?

You get the idea!:D

Keith
 

Ken Krause

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May 7, 2008
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Mundelein, IL
Ken,

Simple and complicated are relative terms...could you define them so I can better answer your question?

You get the idea!:D

Keith

LOL. Yes, this is the problem with trying to describe complex and dynamic athletic movements with mere words. They often don't do the job we want them to do. Much easier to show people than describe it.

At least with some definitions out there we would be able to tell if we disagree or are in heated agreement.

I always liked what Stephen Colbert said about Wikipedia -- it's the truth we all agree on. There's a lot of truth in that.
 
May 21, 2008
12
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Ken

In the second photo you posted, yes, I would say that still meets your definition of elbow up. The second photo is Albert right after his load just prior to launch. This is the only position we say really matters. Everything prior to that is personality and style.

The thing is, in the first photo Alberts elbow would be down by that definition and in the second photo the elbow is up by your definition, even though Alberts elbow has not moved.

I understand your definition now though as the elbow being up or down relative to the hands, up being even with the hands and down being below the hands with the V.
 

Ken Krause

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May 7, 2008
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Mundelein, IL
Ken

In the second photo you posted, yes, I would say that still meets your definition of elbow up. The second photo is Albert right after his load just prior to launch. This is the only position we say really matters. Everything prior to that is personality and style.

The thing is, in the first photo Alberts elbow would be down by that definition and in the second photo the elbow is up by your definition, even though Alberts elbow has not moved.

I understand your definition now though as the elbow being up or down relative to the hands, up being even with the hands and down being below the hands with the V.

Good. One definition down. 1,343,333 to go. :)

Now it comes down to what to teach and what to let happen. For me, I would teach that the elbows start in the down, upside-down V position in the stance.

At launch, I wouldn't even concern myself with up or down. It's a no-teach for me. I will want to see the elbow in the slot, behind the hands as the body rotates rather than ahead of them creating bat drag. If it goes up some in the load so be it. To me it's more important for the hands to remain close to the back shoulder as the hips then shoulders rotate. This is what I see great hitters do.

Weak hitters tend to push their hands back which creates all kinds of problems. They either bar out and then cast, or they pull their elbows past the slot and let them get ahead of their hands. To me, that is a much bigger point of concern.
 
May 21, 2008
12
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But to complete the original discussion, I think according to our agreed upon definition of elbow up, Albert's elbow is up at launch. The setup part is all cosmetic and doesn't matter.

The original discussion started with the idea that elbow up is bad and one of the worst myths of all time. I said that I wouldn't overly concern myself with the position of the elbow (you certainly wouldn't want to see a hitter with their elbow down at their side touching their torso at launch, I would tell that hitter to get their elbow up) but that I didn't think up was inherently bad and that there were plenty of great hitters out there who hit with the elbow up. The video clips we looked at of A-Rod also show him with his elbow all the way up even with his hands. I believe this is proving itself out to be a true statement, by either persons definition of up, that up is not inherently bad.

Now, it is time to go off to catch Ken's daughter and some of our other travel kids play in the regional finals. It's a tough one, we have kids playing on both teams.
 

Ken Krause

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May 7, 2008
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Mr. Charlie, I agree we should look at the original question. It seems to be whether hitters should be told to "get their back elbows up" in their stance. I don't tinink anyone would tell them to get their back elbow up (or down) once the hitting sequence has started. If that is the question, I still say no. In fact, it is better to start with it down and then raise it as part of the load if you're going to raise it. I don't think it's required, but if it happens naturally so be it.

On Pujols specifically, I would say watching him that his hands lower from the stance to the launch position, and that pushes the back elbow out, which is what you're seeing as being "up." He still seems to be maintaining the box, it just got wider. I don't see him bringing his elbow up as you would if you're consciously trying to raise your elbow.

One thing to keep in mind as we look at any of these players is they had coaches when they were younger too. If they were told to raise their back elbows in their stance for no good reason, and they got used to it, they may not see any reason to do it any other way.

Oh, and for those who were wondering, my daughter's team lost. No worries. On to summer ball.
 
May 7, 2008
442
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Ken

I am sorry I have missed a lot of this thread. Sometimes life gets in the way of my enjoyment of discussing hitting. A lot of different things keeping me away from the internet right now. Probably a good thing.

I dont consider raising the back elbow a no teach. I do it for a specific reason. I want my hitters to create tension in the upper back on the back side and the upper front on the front side. Basic adduction and abduction of the shoulder scapula complex. This is done by what is called pulling the bowstring. In other words I am going to move the hands back about 3 to 4 inches from the middle of the front shoulder and will extend the front arm. (Extend the box) I will then tell the hitter to be sure not to counter rotate the front shoulder in by doing this motion. Just move the hands and the hands only. Similar to pulling on a bowstring.

This will load the upper body scapula complex with tension that feeds down into the hitters core. That tension serves a purpose. It will be released by the hitter as they go into rotation creating a whip of the bat through the hitting zone. It will increase bat speed while still maintaining connection and consistent swing plane.

It is a form of Vertical loading of the body instead of shifting the body and creating all kinds of movement that is unwanted and will affect the swing plane of the hitter. Most in the forms of counter rotation. Which is still being taught by many to "Load" the swing. All it does is traps the hands behind the body and slows the swing down. In terms of measurement it would be about 7 to 9 frames of video from start of the knob of the bat to contact with the ball. Way too slow. Bonds comes in at about 4.5 frames and is the most efficient in the world. Steroids or not.

This is also what I see Pujols doing and a lot of other high level hitters. Alberts lower body motion is more interesting to me than what he does with his upper body.

When you watch him his front foot will raise completely up on its toe. What you have to pay attention to with Albert (In very slow motion) with this action is how he shifts his weight into the back hip and loads his core. This vertical loading is very subtle and if you dont watch it closely it will be missed by the average eye. You cannot see this at full speed. In short he is winding (creating Tension) in the core with this movement.

At the point he drops his toe he starts unloading that back hip and goes into a vertical motion forward. (Small Stride) This happens before full foot plant. At full foot plant his forward momentum from the vertical shift goes into full rotation and all H**L breaks loose with his bat acceleration from unwinding the hips and the core. By the time Al has his weight over dead center his back foot is coming off the ground. This is not a forced action but a result of him starting his hip rotation before he is at full foot plant. A common trait of many high level hitters if you watch them closely.

This is not something I would even consider teaching a young hitter. This is a very high level movement that requires a serious amount of core strength to pull off and be efficient with full rotation. That wide stance will hinder most young people from rotating in a manner that will help them be quicker to the ball.

While I love to watch him swing in slow motion I would have to have a very strong athlete before I would go there with what Albert does with his swing. I have tried it with a couple of my better students and they still didnt have the strength and stability to pull if off in a consistent manner. They more often than not would loose connection and break the swing plane to the ball.

If I can get the slop out of a young hitters swing and get them to around a 6 frame swing at the younger ages then by the time they get older and stronger they should be in the ball park with the best in the world.

That is the goal. Time will tell if I get them there. Have a few years to go with most of my students.

Elliott.
 

Ken Krause

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May 7, 2008
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Elliott,

Interesting. In the first part, I approach the hands and set-up differently. I'd rather see the hitter set the bat on her shoulder in a relaxed position, then lift it up and back a little. It seems to be the position, based on hitters I've worked with, that sets them up for the quickest bats. I am leery of extending the box myself -- I see too many young hitters go the other way and wind up barring the arm out, which I'm sure you will agree is not good.

As I try it myself, I find that the shoulder/scapula load feels better to me coming as part of the negative move, which is straight back, not counter-rotation. I see what you're saying (I think) about a vertical load. I tell hitters to take their hands back and up a little. Some will take the elbow back with it, perhaps others do not. I will have to look at it. In any case, what you say is food for thought. I like to experiment with different things, and if there's a good reason to change I will. Other than that, I'm pretty much right with you.

You also bring up another good topic in discussing Pujols: we have to be careful about teaching things that great hitters may do but that may be beyond what the average hitter (especially younger ones) are capable of performing. One of Marc's e-mails talked about four things you need to be an elite athlete, and one of them was the right DNA. Some things elite hitters do may be too much for average athletes, or at least won't come without great difficulty. We always have to prioritize, I think, what will give them enough success to continue to play v. going for an ideal. Not that you compromise, necessarily, but I think it's important to teach things in the right order. Might be worth a thread all by itself.
 
May 12, 2008
2
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Thanks to everybody who gave me some feedback in the topic! I am a second season Little League 10U coach. I got the approval to manage my own team which I am very anxious to do. There are a lot of fundamentals to teach these girls and so many different ways of teaching and implementing these fundamentals. I just want to make sure that what I do teach the girls is in their best interest for being a great softball player. Again Thanks everybody!
 

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