I can't believe this and the IFF rule trips so many people up. It's really not that hard. We were on a 14U team once and one of the coaches and many of the fans still didn't know the rule. It was a travel team so they easily had been to over 150 games up to that point.
Dropped third force out at home
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- May 29, 2015
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USA Softball
- May 29, 2015
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NFHS
Although I can see how one would be confused if they only read the “Timing Play” definition as it refers to any 3rd out that is not a force out. Especially since this is buried in the Scoring and Record Keeping section.
Although I can see how one would be confused if they only read the “Timing Play” definition as it refers to any 3rd out that is not a force out. Especially since this is buried in the Scoring and Record Keeping section.
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- May 29, 2015
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And now for the possibly controversial one ... I’m go into ask for some help with USSSA because I’m not finding it in their book.
Can one of the umpires here to show mewhere a batter-runner being forced out at first is not called a "force out." Not only is it logically a force out because the batter-runner is forced to run; it also meets the requirements of a force out. From a semantics standpoint, it's definitely a force out; from a rules standpoint it seems to be, too.
I can find multiple instances in the NFHS rulebook where this is referred to as a force out in one context or another. Section 6, Article 3; Section 6 Article 7 (this is about appealing, but it explicitly says the batter-runner being put out at first base is a force out); Section 10, Article 2a; Section 38, Article 2 (a batter-runner is "an offensive player who is being forced to advance").
So whre do you guys see, specifically, that a batter-runner being out at first is not considered a force out? I've never, ever heard of this before, and I can't find anything in the rules to support it.
I can find multiple instances in the NFHS rulebook where this is referred to as a force out in one context or another. Section 6, Article 3; Section 6 Article 7 (this is about appealing, but it explicitly says the batter-runner being put out at first base is a force out); Section 10, Article 2a; Section 38, Article 2 (a batter-runner is "an offensive player who is being forced to advance").
So whre do you guys see, specifically, that a batter-runner being out at first is not considered a force out? I've never, ever heard of this before, and I can't find anything in the rules to support it.
The definition of a force out is a runner who loses the right to occupy a base because the batter becomes a batter runner. A batter runner cannot occupy a base in which to be forced from, and a batter runner is not "forced" to run anywhere. For all practical purposes a play at first base on a batter runner is treated exactly the same as a force out, but by definition it is not one.
SB45
Dad, Coach, Chauffeur
Could the catcher have just touched home plate?
Yes as long as it was before the runner from 3rd touched it.
- May 29, 2015
- 3,785
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@CoachJD — Well ... learning is fun, for all of us! I didn’t know this, but ...
USSSA actually does consider any play on the batter-runner at first base a force play. That’s why I couldn’t find it.
USA Softball does NOT ...
Nor does NFHS ...
... and yes, it is an area that the rulebooks are “sloppy” on. I agree with you it makes more sense to use “forced to advance” as the standard (which would make a play on the batter-runner a force play), but traditionally the standard has been “forced to vacate” (which would exclude the batter-runner).
USSSA actually does consider any play on the batter-runner at first base a force play. That’s why I couldn’t find it.
USA Softball does NOT ...
Nor does NFHS ...
... and yes, it is an area that the rulebooks are “sloppy” on. I agree with you it makes more sense to use “forced to advance” as the standard (which would make a play on the batter-runner a force play), but traditionally the standard has been “forced to vacate” (which would exclude the batter-runner).
