Drop Ball Before Rise Ball / Inside & Outside Curves & Screwballs

[Hillhouse]

Mark

here my is my problem (or one of many problems).. the people doing this "math", were they actually using someone who has 6/12 spin to compare? A lot of people THINK they have good spin, just as every father of an 8 yr old thinks she throws 60 mph. And I realize I'm a little more demanding than most when it comes to rotation. But, most people who do studies on riseballs are not using very good examples of them, IMHO. I don't wanna get into the whole riseball debate thing but, are these same people taking everything into account when they study whether or not it can go up? Seam height, air density/humidity, wind direction, wind speed, rotation of ball, etc.? Or are these the same people who say a 2 seam pitch will move as much as a 4 seam? Yes, that's rhetorical. And I know I may be in the minority but I still think far too many people give credit for someone having a good riseball and getting lots of strike outs without taking into account when you watch 90% of these girls hit and see what they are taught in regards to hitting, they couldn't hit a high pitch if they had to.. whether it's angled or actually going up. So, is it good pitching or bad hitting? Sometimes both.

I become a little fired up about the riseball because of what I see so many people teaching. I don't care if people want to believe in it or not.. don't get me wrong. But it's really sad when I see what is taught vs what it should actually be doing. No wonder there is so much debate about this topic.

Off my soapbox now
Bill

 

[Coach Stan]

Bill you say you do not like how the rise ball is being taught by some pitching instructors. How do you teach your students to pitch the riseball? This is just a question not trying to stir the pot. I am just curious.

I respect that you insist that each pitch has the proper spin. That is vital to the development of pitchers.

 

[sluggers]

There is no comparison between a riseball with pure backspin and one with say a 30 degree offset. A riseball with pure rise spin looks like it jumps a foot when it gets to the plate.

As to the science, whenever a ball is thrown without 6-12 spin, two things happen. (1) The spin in the direction of the movement of the ball is reduced and (2) the effect of the seams is reduced because the seams are not completely rotating toward the batter (i.e., the ball is smoother in the direction of motion, thereby reducing the lift.)

As an aside, I found an article on riseballs that showed that a riseball with 6-12 spin reduces the effect of gravity by about 20%.

 

[Mark H]

Bill, they didn't use anyone. It's mathematics and physics.

 

[Hillhouse]

Mark

Ok, we're diving back into that age old debate. What is baffling is for every "physics guy" who says it's impossible, there is another who says it's very possible under the correct circumstances. I did a clinic at the end of Feb for a guy in St Louis who works for the Dept of Defense in his day job. He does missile trajectory and other type stuff which I cannot even begin to understand and in the dinner discussions on this very topic he was adamant that it was physically possible, again... under the right circumstances. At first I was thinking what you probably are... that guy was full of it. But, in our conversation it quickly became apparent that he knew a lot about such things: physics, trajectory headings, etc. So, this is generally where someone comes in and says "show me video" or "people also say Bigfoot exists". I'm not trying to argue either point, all I'm trying to say is for everyone who says it can't do it, there are equally smart people saying it can. And in many cases, the examples/models being used are not the best for such a demo. By the way, Bigfoot is real.

Stan, I'm not sure how to answer your question in words. But what I can tell you is a backspin riseball is not possible with a locked elbow (which gets taught), going around the hips (which gets taught) and with bullet spin (which gets taught). I don't claim to have invented the pitch or hold a patent on it. But I'm very unapologetic as to what is RIGHT and WRONG. I don't consider someone leaning back and throwing a high pitch to be throwing a riseball. And that is exactly what occurs a lot. I've seen kids, who claim to have 8 pitches, throw their riseball with the exact same spin as their 'fastball'. For that matter, almost all 8 pitches have similar spin. ;-) And I think the fact that so many pitchers get away with such pitches speaks volumes about the hitting (or lack of). Basically, it comes down to this in my view: grip is irrelevant, as long as all 4 seams spin backward. Some grips are more beneficial than others but, it's a style choice. The pitcher needs to be going THROUGH the hips, not around them, or it won't work. And the elbow needs to be flexed so the hand can get under the ball correctly, which cannot happen if it's locked. So, in a nutshell...

Bill

 

[Mark H]

No I'm not touching that does it really curve up debate. I'm saying the percentage difference of lift between pure backspin vs half bullet spin half backspin is not linear. The percentage of lift goes down slower than the percentage of backspin vs bullet spin according to the people who make planes fly and the like. Like you, I'd really like to see the axis of rotation traveling pretty close to perpendicular to flight path. But, I see a lot of girls with half that giving hitters a lot of trouble.

For the record, I'd really like it to turn out to be true the ball curved upward through the zone but then I'm a bit of a romantic. Bigfoot would be cool too.

 

[jimginas]

great discussion. Bill / Gents, assuming your pitcher is hitting fastball locations consistantly and is consistant with her changeup, what pitch would you recommend teaching next?
*** By this I mean, what pitch should she begin working her wrist work for?

 

[Coach Stan]

Thanks Bill your explaination was real good. Looks like you have been teaching and throwing the riseball the same way I have when I started in 1969.

 

[jofus13]

My DD's instructor went fastball to changeup (she works on a couple different changeups) to drop ball.

Then curve and screw balls. She's been trying the rise ball for a few months, but it's been a very slow process.

I'll be honest....her curve ball and screw ball don't move a lot yet, but they do have a little movement when she is pitching them well, and she is improving. She spent a while on the peel drop, which she could place well, and it would drop, but it never seemed to drop extremely well....this winter, she tried the turn-over drop again for the first time since early in her lessons (whatever the "official" name is), and I'm amazed at how much more it drops than the peel drop. She isn't quite as accurate with it yet, but she's getting close. It's her first pitch that has what I would call good movement.

Using the Revfire really seems to help her, since it gives instant feedback on how she is doing on her spins.

 

[CalifB]

I think a lot of the problem is that pitchers try to throw around their hip instead of bringing the arm through with the hip following. They can't get their wrist and fingers in the right place to throw a good rise.