Dd plays 10u and started pitching late summer. She was shown how to pitch using a draw back method (where you draw the arm back before arm circle/stride forward....if I'm not calling it the right thing). Over winter I've had her working with a PC and they didn't change it. We just started back with the team this week and one of the coaches is suggesting she change to a no draw method. Says the fewer moving parts the better, bc watching dd she is still inconsistent with how far she draws for each pitch. Any thoughts on this? We wont have another lesson with her PC for a few more weeks.
Draw back vs no draw
- Thread starter AmyLynn05
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Sounds like you're talking about a backswing. At that young an age I would prefer a little backswing for rhythm but it should be consistent. Opinions will vary on backswing vs out of the glove.
I would be more concerned about where her stride foot is at 12.
I'm the guy that bought the Hillhouse tapes. LOL. That's his quote not mine. DD started off with an out of glove motion and hates a backswing. She throws harder without the backswing. Her best friend, very good pitcher, started off with a backswing and then switched to out of glove style. She just went back to a backswing. She throws a little harder with the backswing. Both work but not always for the same kiddo. IMO, the key to out of glove style is keeping the ball in your glove until 3 o'clock and driving your hands towards the catcher.
The most important thing is timing of pitching arm
Where is the pitching arm's Humerus at touch touch of stride foot leg---10 o'clock to somewhere around9 O'clock? Then backswing or out of glove style doesn't matter. Play with both. My DD likes backswing but can pitch same speeds either way. Timing of toe touch and Humerus is the goal, backswing or no backswing are just pieces of the timing to get a pitcher in the optimum landing timing.
Where is the pitching arm's Humerus at touch touch of stride foot leg---10 o'clock to somewhere around9 O'clock? Then backswing or out of glove style doesn't matter. Play with both. My DD likes backswing but can pitch same speeds either way. Timing of toe touch and Humerus is the goal, backswing or no backswing are just pieces of the timing to get a pitcher in the optimum landing timing.
I would look at where she is at around 3 oclock, is the back foot/toe about to leave the rubber and finishing the push off the rubber?
I would also check the other positions mentioned.
I would also check the other positions mentioned.
I believe being able to have body positions and mechanics exactly the same every pitch is key to accuracy. The trouble I found with DD was in the back swing sometime it was straight back sometimes 1 “ behind depending on amount of shoulder torque and core tightness it’s almost impossible to back swing exactly the same every time. We do the ball in glove from Hillhouse cd’s and try to keep them together so we have same starting point at 3 o’clock which leaves less time for error in body position consistentcy and better accuracy. I do believe it’s different for each player I just found my DD could not backswing consistently.
- Aug 21, 2008
- 2,379
- 113
Folks, the backswing is not an absolute. Pitchers can do it or not do it. Personally, I see 3 (potentially 4) bad things happen when pitchers do it:
1. they lock the elbow. And 90% who lock, never unlock it. Especially if the've been trained with the "wrist flip" mentality as part of their warm up, which is nothing more than bad muscle memory of pitching with a straight arm.
2. They show everyone the ball, and the grip on the ball. Does that matter at 12U? No. 14U? Not really. 16U? It's starting to. Why show anyone the ball and your grip prematurely?
3. The most important reason: again 90% of the girls who backswing stop their glove hand at their belt and only swing the ball hand backwards... meaning only the ball hand shoots forward during the delivery. The glove hand does very very little to help the forward momentum. This is 1/2 of your body power doing nothing to help the pitch!!! Would you teach her to jump for a rebound or a jump ball in basketball with only one arm for momentum???? Probably not. So why only one arm when pitching? REAL power in pitching comes from your legs, not your arm. Both arms shooting forward provides a stronger push than a single arm does.
4. Not every pitcher does this but the glove swim. In the majority of cases when a pitcher has a massive swim of the glove hand, take a look at how early the hands are separated (usually during a backswing). Once the hands separate the glove is free to go crazy. If the hands stay together, not only are you preventing elbow lock, hiding the ball, giving yourselves both sides to push forward but you're also going to eliminate the glove's ability to go swimming (for the most part).
No, it's not an absolute to keep the hands together. I believe there are more LONG TERM benefits to it vs. the back arm swing. But sometimes we don't see the long game, only the instant gratification And if you spend your 12U-14U days doing a big backswing, then suddenly realize the hitters see the ball better, see your grips for pitches better, and think you need to change guess what?? It will feel like she's pitching with the opposite hand to change the delivery. It's THAT different!!!
Yes, there are a lot of good pitchers who do a back arm swing. But I'm telling you that the hitting is catching up. Bats and balls are not the same as when Finch or Scarborough was in college. Combine better than ever hitting training, bats and balls of 2020, and more and more guys like me teaching hitters who to "pick pitchers" and learning how to hit (not just swing a bat).... the game is changing.
Bill
1. they lock the elbow. And 90% who lock, never unlock it. Especially if the've been trained with the "wrist flip" mentality as part of their warm up, which is nothing more than bad muscle memory of pitching with a straight arm.
2. They show everyone the ball, and the grip on the ball. Does that matter at 12U? No. 14U? Not really. 16U? It's starting to. Why show anyone the ball and your grip prematurely?
3. The most important reason: again 90% of the girls who backswing stop their glove hand at their belt and only swing the ball hand backwards... meaning only the ball hand shoots forward during the delivery. The glove hand does very very little to help the forward momentum. This is 1/2 of your body power doing nothing to help the pitch!!! Would you teach her to jump for a rebound or a jump ball in basketball with only one arm for momentum???? Probably not. So why only one arm when pitching? REAL power in pitching comes from your legs, not your arm. Both arms shooting forward provides a stronger push than a single arm does.
4. Not every pitcher does this but the glove swim. In the majority of cases when a pitcher has a massive swim of the glove hand, take a look at how early the hands are separated (usually during a backswing). Once the hands separate the glove is free to go crazy. If the hands stay together, not only are you preventing elbow lock, hiding the ball, giving yourselves both sides to push forward but you're also going to eliminate the glove's ability to go swimming (for the most part).
No, it's not an absolute to keep the hands together. I believe there are more LONG TERM benefits to it vs. the back arm swing. But sometimes we don't see the long game, only the instant gratification And if you spend your 12U-14U days doing a big backswing, then suddenly realize the hitters see the ball better, see your grips for pitches better, and think you need to change guess what?? It will feel like she's pitching with the opposite hand to change the delivery. It's THAT different!!!
Yes, there are a lot of good pitchers who do a back arm swing. But I'm telling you that the hitting is catching up. Bats and balls are not the same as when Finch or Scarborough was in college. Combine better than ever hitting training, bats and balls of 2020, and more and more guys like me teaching hitters who to "pick pitchers" and learning how to hit (not just swing a bat).... the game is changing.
Bill
- Sep 29, 2014
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- 113
We preach here if you copy what the best do you will more times than not be OK. This is probably the only thing I can think of that Bill teaches that does not follow this axiom (for women). Hopefully this doesn't devolve into a different direction but I am only observing what I see. Bill has more knowledge about pitching in his pinky finger than I will ever hope to amass so I'll just take him at his word with his very first statement in the post "the backswing is not an absolute". Now if you mean the best in the world you would be talking about men and a lot of men don't have a back swing I do have my own philosophy on why but again I don't want the thread to go sideways. Sufficed it do say most elite women do have a backswing and it works just fine. So I would go with what makes her most comfortable although truth be told she is 10 so you could mold her whatever direction you wanted...to each his own. Bottom line this isn't an absolute.
