Did the umpire get it correct, bad initial call

[SiB57]

Played in a USSSA tournament last weekend. 10U

Runners at 1st and 3rd

Girl swings at a bad pitch, very low. Chop hits it off the plate, very obviously to me (coaching 1st) and 3B coach, and it pops straight up between home and 1st. 1B comes in and catches it. Because it hit off the plate my runner on 1st takes off to 2nd and runner on 3rd books it home. Umpire thought it was a pop-fly and called the batter out, which lead to all kinds of confusion, now they're trying to double up the girl that took off to 2nd, the girl who scored from 3rd is wondering what to do, and the batter, very fast, would've beat the throw to 1st since no one was covering, and even if they were, she's very fast and would've beaten it anyway. Girls running all over the place.

After both base coaches asked the umpire didn't that hit the plate, he checked with the field umpire who confirmed it did hit the plate, so it's a ground ball not an out. Since it was so messed up at that point, what's the correct "fix"

The solution they used was to return the runner to 3rd, and give the runners 1st and 2nd. We think we're getting a little screwed because our run didn't score in a close game, but also realize that's probably the best solution for everyone. Other team is LIVID (to the point parents were almost kicked out of the game) claiming since it was called an out, that had to stand and they should be able to double up the girl running from 1st to 2nd.

Is that what they should've done?
Thanks!

 

[chinamigarden]

It’s hard to punish either team for a bad initial call, so this seems like the best outcome. You didn’t get an out or a run scored.

 

[joe720]

Sounds like the final decision that was made was the fair thing to do in that instance. Bad calls happen, just the way it works.

 

[marriard]

Played in a USSSA tournament last weekend. 10U

Runners at 1st and 3rd

Girl swings at a bad pitch, very low. Chop hits it off the plate, very obviously to me (coaching 1st) and 3B coach, and it pops straight up between home and 1st. 1B comes in and catches it. Because it hit off the plate my runner on 1st takes off to 2nd and runner on 3rd books it home. Umpire thought it was a pop-fly and called the batter out, which lead to all kinds of confusion, now they're trying to double up the girl that took off to 2nd, the girl who scored from 3rd is wondering what to do, and the batter, very fast, would've beat the throw to 1st since no one was covering, and even if they were, she's very fast and would've beaten it anyway. Girls running all over the place.

After both base coaches asked the umpire didn't that hit the plate, he checked with the field umpire who confirmed it did hit the plate, so it's a ground ball not an out. Since it was so messed up at that point, what's the correct "fix"

The solution they used was to return the runner to 3rd, and give the runners 1st and 2nd. We think we're getting a little screwed because our run didn't score in a close game, but also realize that's probably the best solution for everyone. Other team is LIVID (to the point parents were almost kicked out of the game) claiming since it was called an out, that had to stand and they should be able to double up the girl running from 1st to 2nd.

Is that what they should've done?
Thanks!

Weeee........
OK........

First as an umpire you are going to have take this on the chin, and there is no 'fix' that is going to make everyone happy. But in the end, there is a principle to follow; my bad call cannot put someone in additional jeopardy of being out or stopping defensive players from making a play. You will note: Fair doesn't really come into the process of what to do

Some of this is had to be there, but if it happened EXACTLY as you said; as we get together as officials the discussion goes like this
- What did you see happen - was it a bounced ball? Ugh. Ok, well then it is not a catch; we need to deal with this best we can. Need to manage this a lot.
- We are now agreed on what happened and what the runners and fielders all did.
- Lets go through each runner and decide what the best action we can take based on what happened, on the rules and then based on what we may have to decide.

So let's do that in the order we need to (easiest to hardest):

1) Runner on 3rd; there appears there was no play on her in any way possible, she scored, she is safe at home.
2) Batter-Runner: If there was no catch, could the fielder have easily tagged her or was already looking to make a play at 1st when the out call confused her and made her change her action? If there was NO play to make; I am going to award her first. If there was an easy out to make, I am very likely calling her out.
3) Runner on 1st: This is the tricky one, because she clearly took off on the hit. There is a lot of 'had to be there' and what ifs.

• If I am calling the batter-runner out, then I am 99% likely going to call this runner safe and very likely place her on 2B because the likelihood of a second play on this runner is very low.
• If I called the batter-runner safe then it is may depend on what fielders did and didn't do.
  • Did the defense make a play on her at any time (if she got to a base safely despite the confusion I am not calling her out)
  • If the defense fielded the ball and threw it straight to 2nd (because they saw the chop) - then is it a force (it is if the batter-runner is safe, it isn't if decided the batter-runner was out)
  • If the fielders all kinda stood around confused for a while and the girl stopped halfway because of confusion but would likely have made it safe if she had continued, I am probably calling her safe at second. (Note; If I call the batter-runner is safe at at first, this forces this runner to second no matter what the decision is).
  • Additional complications - this is 10U. They can do almost anything on any play. 18U, 1B fields the ball and either makes the play on the batter-runner coming up the line or fires it to second. In 10U the 1B fielding the ball and firing it to 2B for a force it on the highly unlikely list.

4) Ok - now we have a decision; time to get both head coaches in; and I explain it almost exactly as above. This is what happened and this the call we are making, this is what I am doing with the runner on 3, on 1 and the batter-runner and why I am doing that. That is the best decision we can make based on what happened, so time to move on.

If they want to protest to the TD/UIC at this point, then they are welcome to; but that is the final decision on the field.

(So I am scoring the runner on 3 because there was no play on her to make, if it is true there was no play to be made on the batter-runner I am putting her on 1, and I am VERY likely calling the runner at 1 safe, so she has to go to 2B). That is my reading based on my understanding of what happened.

 

[SiB57]

Thanks marriard! Great explanation.

 

[gamommax3]

Love this explanation. Thanks!

Weeee........
OK........

First as an umpire you are going to have take this on the chin, and there is no 'fix' that is going to make everyone happy. But in the end, there is a principle to follow; my bad call cannot put someone in additional jeopardy of being out or stopping defensive players from making a play. You will note: Fair doesn't really come into the process of what to do

Some of this is had to be there, but if it happened EXACTLY as you said; as we get together as officials the discussion goes like this
- What did you see happen - was it a bounced ball? Ugh. Ok, well then it is not a catch; we need to deal with this best we can. Need to manage this a lot.
- We are now agreed on what happened and what the runners and fielders all did.
- Lets go through each runner and decide what the best action we can take based on what happened, on the rules and then based on what we may have to decide.

So let's do that in the order we need to (easiest to hardest):

1) Runner on 3rd; there appears there was no play on her in any way possible, she scored, she is safe at home.
2) Batter-Runner: If there was no catch, could the fielder have easily tagged her or was already looking to make a play at 1st when the out call confused her and made her change her action? If there was NO play to make; I am going to award her first. If there was an easy out to make, I am very likely calling her out.
3) Runner on 1st: This is the tricky one, because she clearly took off on the hit. There is a lot of 'had to be there' and what ifs.

• If I am calling the batter-runner out, then I am 99% likely going to call this runner safe and very likely place her on 2B.
• If I called the batter-runner out then it is may depend on what fielders did and didn't do.
  • Did the defense make a play on her at any time (if she got to a base safely despite the confusion I am not calling her out)
  • If the defense fielded the ball and threw it straight to 2nd (because they saw the chop) - then is it a force (it is if the batter-runner is safe, it isn't if decided the batter-runner was out)
  • If the fielders all kinda stood around confused for a while and the girl stopped halfway because of confusion but would likely have made it safe if she had continued, I am probably calling her safe at second. (Note; If I call the batter-runner is safe at at first, this forces this runner to second no matter what the decision is).
  • Additional complications - this is 10U. They can do almost anything on any play. 18U, 1B fields the ball and either makes the play on the batter-runner coming up the line or fires it to second. In 10U the 1B fielding the ball and firing it to 2B for a force it on the highly unlikely list.

4) Ok - now we have a decision; time to get both head coaches in; and I explain it almost exactly as above. This is what happened and this the call we are making, this is what I am doing with the runner on 3, on 1 and the batter-runner and why I am doing that. That is the best decision we can make based on what happened, so time to move on.

If they want to protest to the TD/UIC at this point, then they are welcome to; but that is the final decision on the field.

(So I am scoring the runner on 3 because there was no play on her to make, if it is true there was no play to be made on the batter-runner I am putting her on 1, and I am VERY likely calling the runner at 1 safe, so she has to go to 2B). That is my reading based on my understanding of what happened.

 

[marriard]

I noticed I didn't add in additional complications based the number of outs.

I am going to assume no outs.

For example, if there were 2 outs; and the batter-runner is out, then the runner on 3B doesn't score

 

[SiB57]

There was 1 out. Forgot that bit!

 

[Strike2]

First as an umpire you are going to have take this on the chin, and there is no 'fix' that is going to make everyone happy. But in the end, there is a principle to follow; my bad call cannot put someone in additional jeopardy of being out or stopping defensive players from making a play. You will note: Fair doesn't really come into the process of what to do

Then you must have tripped into it by accident, because your explanation appears pretty "fair". All you can do with a blown call of this type is make a reasoned assessment of the most likely outcome had you not made the mistake. However, I'd suggest that with the type of hit described, unless it was REALLY high in the air before 1B caught it, there's a play at Home. Perhaps at 10U the first impulse is a play on the runner headed to 1B, but if it bounces high in the air before being caught, everyone is probably safe. At 18U, with 1B already heading towards Home to catch the "pop-up" grounder, the play is probably at Home assuming R3 is going.

 

[inumpire]

I am wondering what the plate umpire was watching to miss this? Oh, that’s right up you said it was USSSA. He was probably counting all the money he was going to make working 8 games in a row.