Welcome to Discuss Fastpitch

Your FREE Account is waiting to the Best Softball Community on the Web.

Register Log in

DD at a lesson

Nov 16, 2017
294
43
My thoughts are that the difference between hard TTB guys and W=w is actually very small. Due to pitch location on all these videos it gets a little hard to tell the difference.

The basic difference is; does the knob start moving forward at the same time rear elbow is slotted?, or does it hold its position until the back elbow is slotted.

All players TTB it just depends on if TTB is a unique top half move or is it part of several things happing at once.

TTB as a unique top half move (Tewksbury): If the knob does not move forward until the front elbow is up and the back elbow is slotted you have a full TTB as a unique move situation. The advantages to this is you can get a larger separation between your top and bottom half. If your top half holds: no forward shoulder movement, no forward bottom elbow (which should be pointed down at this moment) then just your elbows move lE: back elbow to slot and front elbow up above the plane of the pitch. While the top half holds and just the elbows turn the barrel the bottom half (hips and back knee) start to move forward. So you have top half holding firm and hips / back knee moving forward which gives you maximum separation. You will see more of this type of swing with guys with crazy power especially for their size. You can see in this image how Josh is holding his top half back while his hips have already started moving forward.

Screen Shot 2019-10-17 at 9.51.28 AM.png

The disadvantage of this style of hitting is you lose adjustability. You have more power but may be prone to more swing and misses. You have to get pitch plane pretty much right at FYB by using shoulder plane\spine angle.

With what I am getting from W=w is the turning of the barrel occurs as the knob starts moving forward and is a part of the beginning of the swing. The back elbow still gets down, the front elbow still gets up. You basically maintain the triangle from fyb until contact but instead of a sudden turn of the triangle it is a gradual turn of the triangle. This will allow you move forgiveness in the perfect spine angle. This swing is a little more fluid. As I experimented with this way, it is definitely more of a sense of using your hands and swinging down. As the video that W=w posted with the guy talking about barrel on plane vs hands on plane you can see the difference between that and what Josh is doing above. What Josh is doing above is barrel on plane. Hands on plane is different. The video of Acuna above is what W=w is after. Power is going to come from whipping pivot point more where what Josh does is power comes directly from your spinal engine.

Now that I see a clear difference, what is the best way forward. We see players use both of these patterns and be very successful. I would say that the full TTB early with maximum separation can work with very athletic hard working players who can be good at nailing big moves. You have to nail the big move of getting to FYB with the right spine angle. If done right you will hit the ball harder. The W=w method can work for all types of players cause it is less dependent on mastery of bigger moves.

I believe that there is a middle ground here that is the holy grail. What Matt Antonelli does in the previous video is not exactly right. What Josh is doing above isn't exactly what he does either. The question is what portion of TTB occurs before the hands start moving forward. After looking at a bunch of the greats, it appears that the forward motion of Barry Bonds hands start forward when his back elbow is at 45 degrees from a starting point of 0 degrees. 45 DEGREES the perfect middle ground. He maintains as much stretch as possible by turning the barrel until his back elbow gets to 45 degrees. At 45 degrees of his back elbow, his hands start moving forward while the triangle continues the turn giving him the adjustability. Best of both worlds.

So .02 is this whole forever long debate on this forum is a true comprise of both what W=w promotes and others that follow more of what Tewksbury promotes.
 
May 24, 2013
10,960
113
So Cal

There’s a good view of radial and ulnar deviation during launch and release. Supination/pronation happens during release of the barrel not before.

Another really late release.. geez. Low level Joey! Low level!

I'm curious how a hitter makes the barrel blur behind them like that, in a circular pattern, without supination of the rear hand/forearm from "go".
 
Jun 8, 2016
6,482
113
The basic difference is; does the knob start moving forward at the same time rear elbow is slotted?, or does it hold its position until the back elbow is slotted.

All players TTB it just depends on if TTB is a unique top half move or is it part of several things happing at once.

TTB as a unique top half move (Tewksbury): If the knob does not move forward until the front elbow is up and the back elbow is slotted you have a full TTB as a unique move situation.


Judge is the poster child for TM's (Tewks and TM are similar although TM would probably argue that point) TTB..do you actually see no forward movement of the knob until front elbow is up/back elbow slotted? Now it may not move forward much in relation to a point on their body (shoulder for example) but it does move forward in space...Nobody swings a bat at a moving ball where they just (initially) supinate their hands without any forward movement in space. Likewise even the worst push the knob swing has some rotation in the knob initially (e.g nobody really swings like Pujols did in his demo). The knob starts to translate and rotate pretty much simultaneously for all swings..good and bad. Just look at the worst swing you can find..the knob will likely be rotating from the get go. That said, not enough rotation in comparison to translation (really it would probably be a rate of rotation in comparison to the translation rate that you would want to compare) causes the hands to cross the body too soon and causes a push swing.

Note, I haven't said what causes the rotation of the knob.. ;)
 
Last edited:
Nov 16, 2017
294
43


Judge is the poster child for TM's (Tewks and TM are similar although TM would probably argue that point) TTB..do you actually see no forward movement of the knob until front elbow is up/back elbow slotted? Now it may not move forward much in relation to a point on their body (shoulder for example) but it does move forward in space...Nobody swings a bat at a moving ball where they just (initially) supinate their hands without any forward movement in space. Likewise even the worst push the knob swing has some rotation in the knob initially (e.g nobody really swings like Pujols did in his demo). The knob starts to translate and rotate pretty much simultaneously for all swings..good and bad. Just look at the worst swing you can find..the knob will likely be rotating from the get go. That said, not enough rotation in comparison to translation (really it would probably be a rate of rotation in comparison to the translation rate that you would want to compare) causes the hands to cross the body too soon and causes a push swing.

Note, I haven't said what causes the rotation of the knob.. ;)
Let me clarify. Knob moving forward not due to lower half moving down and forward. What I see in all these players is that there is a toe touch where the rear elbow is up, then the hands stay back as the front heel is driven down at the same time the back elbow gets to 45 degrees. You can see this because the knob maintains the angle of pointing to the catchers left foot. Yes there is a bit of forward move regardless but it is slight.

BTW really don't like AJ swing that much. I think he over rocks his back side and doesn't stay vertically stacked, but who I am to Judge lol.
 

TDS

Mar 11, 2010
1,869
83
isn't this pronation>>supination?

Based upon the chart with pictures above,
my interpretation is:
bottom hand = radial/ulnar deviation
top hand = forearm pronation/supination

is this not correct?
So in this clip I see the top hand only transitioning from radial/ulnar deviation.. Supination happens in all swings.. Think of it more in terms of change in barrel direction and less about creating a vertical (supinated) barrel path. miggy is trying to maintain that radial/unlar deviation.




 
Last edited:
Jun 4, 2019
74
18
Sometimes I feel for these kids. Sort of like golf, everyone trying to copy the tiger woods swings over the last 20 years.

Develop a swing that works for you. You don’t have to copy anybody’s swing to be a great hitter. Sure, have to learn the basic concepts.

When I watch some of these girls hit, mostly 10 to 16 years old, some of them look like they’re thinking about everything besides hitting the ball when they are in the box. They look horribly uncomfortable as you can tell they’ve all been over coached to some extent.
 
May 24, 2013
10,960
113
So Cal
When I watch some of these girls hit, mostly 10 to 16 years old, some of them look like they’re thinking about everything besides hitting the ball when they are in the box. They look horribly uncomfortable as you can tell they’ve all been over coached to some extent.
I just talked to 14U player about this exact topic earlier this week. She mentioned that she was feeling frustrated trying to incorporate all the things she was learning from her new hitting instructor. My advice to her...When you're in the box, clear your brain, and just compete. Practice is the time for making changes, and figuring out new things. Sometimes it takes a while for those changes to get fully programmed, and that's okay. In the game, make your best swing with what your body knows how to do right now. Just compete.
 
Oct 13, 2014
2,957
113
South Cali
I'm curious how a hitter makes the barrel blur behind them like that, in a circular pattern, without supination of the rear hand/forearm from "go".


I'm curious how a hitter makes the barrel blur behind them like that, in a circular pattern, without supination of the rear hand/forearm from "go".
I wish I could give you a better answer...

But trying to keep the barrel up is fighting supination/release which makes the rear elbow adduct and externally rotate which supports the rd to ud I.e. load and launch of the barrel, or lag to release.

This could give the look of ‘active’ supination(ROM of the rear elbow). I believe reactive supination happens when it’s time to release the barrel into the ball.


‘Palm up to the ball, and finish up’.

Sean Casey does a good job here.


‘The elbow works independently from the hand’.



Sorry for late response. Busy day.
 
Last edited:

Members online

Forum statistics

Threads
36,179
Messages
543,569
Members
16,913
Latest member
Mudhog79
Top