Daughter's pitching coach wants to teach the curve before the drop - thoughts?

[El Oso]

You could also say that a junk baller is a pitcher who throws his breaking and off speed pitches more than his fastball

I know of no one that defines a junk ball pitcher like this.

 

[cnardone]

I know of no one that defines a junk ball pitcher like this.

That is because when your slider is 90+mph, it is not junk. It is nasty.

 

[El Oso]

That is because when your slider is 90+mph, it is not junk. It is nasty.

Exactly!

 

[RIZZARIJOE]

But if the goal is to be at that level and be one of the best, why not do what the best do? I just don't understand the mentality of not imitating what the best do. Most kid basketball players in my generation wanted to be Jordan, so the imitated him. Football players imitate Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, etc. When I was a kid, I had softball pitchers as my heros. And I imitated them. I started off in a church league in Erie PA, moving into our city rec men's league at 12 or 13, getting clobbered by grown men. But I kept going with trying to imitate what I saw from Mike White, Pete Meredith and others.

All poodles are dogs but not all dogs are poodles. Use that phrase, because not all pitchers use the north-south movement but all the great ones do.

Agreed! I can understand why a pitcher may not want to throw the rise - maybe she doesn't have the requisite speed to throw the rise, but why not the drop? If you can throw a fastball, it's relatively easy to teach and master the peel drop. Okay, Bill, here's my rant - As a former pitcher, current pitching coach, and umpire, it pains me to see girls claiming to throw 5 - 6 pitches, and they all look alike. Or, the overzealous dad that claims his little 12-year-old Suzy throws 60mph. In Massachusetts, the top speed at 14U is around 56 MPH. Around here, that wins trophies on Sundays. By way of perspective, there is a college combine at the former Fort Devens every year. I've done the statistical analysis for them. Every year there are not more than six and not less than four girls that consistently throw over 60 MPH. Those upper speeds have been remarkably consistent for the last 20+ years. Also, the standard deviation is very "tightly packed." 68.2% of the girls throw between 53 - 57 MPH. If you go to two standard deviations, roughly 95% of the prospects, the speed was between 52 - 58.5 MPH. And these figures are skewed or biased, as these are girls planning on pitching in college. It doesn't take into account the 18-year-old throwing a soft 51 MPH.

Even more egregious is a girl with a decent changeup but only throws it only two or three times in the course of a game. Usually with two strikes on the batter. I know that in my area (Massachusetts), the pitching isn't that great. But some coaches that are calling pitches from the bucket aren't doing their pitchers a favor by only calling fastballs. I call it the big girl syndrome. Usually, at younger ages, the girls that pitch are bigger and stronger than other girls. They don't need anything other than a fastball. They can't understand when they hit 14U why they're being lit up. Coaches are inherently selfish. If you're at 10U or 12U and you throw hard with control, the chances are that no coach will help you develop other pitches. Why should they - you serve their purposes by throwing hard and with control. Even if you're lucky enough to work with a good pitching coach, the chances are that the coach won't incorporate what you've learned in-game time experience. Also, Why does an 18U or 16U pitcher and catcher need a bucket coach to call pitches? The catcher has the best perspective on where the batter is at in the box - a perspective that no coach has. ( end of rant, thank God!).

 

[ArmWhip]

I can understand why a pitcher may not want to throw the rise - maybe she doesn't have the requisite speed to throw the rise, but why not the drop? If you can throw a fastball, it's relatively easy to teach and master the peel drop.

It's not a matter of whether a pitcher wants to throw a rise, it's more that they can't. I was at the Devens Thursday clinic and at 3 other 'Showcases' in the Southern Mass area. I saw one pitcher with a little backspin on her 'rise' and she threw it at 52 mph. How many pitchers did you see there with a true back spin rise? In a perfect world throwing North-South is great, in the real world throwing South is easy, throwing North is near impossible.

When a young pitcher wants to learn a spin pitch the knee jerk answer is 'learn the drop'. I would say that 80% of the young girls that I have worked with threw a near or pure top spin fastball. So learning the drop gives them 2 pitches that are basically the same. As far as whether the curve is an effective pitch Giselle Juarez threw her curve and won a WCWS championship. I was recently watching a video of former WCWS winner Megan King playing a game of PIG in a bullpen session, she threw her curve. And then there's this:

"One of the most successful pitchers in post-season history is Paige Parker from Oklahoma. In fact, this 2-time national champion suffered the first post season loss in her career this year. As a senior!
Paige Parker Pitcher Oklahoma WCWS Washington Pitches Women's College World Series 2018

So, let’s look at how Paige threw to Washington’s first 4 hitters, and just how many different pitches this 4-time All-American, and 2-time National Champion uses when it matters most:

To start the game, Parker threw to Washington’s top 4 batters, getting 2 strikeouts, 1 popup and one double. Out of a total of 23 pitches, Paige Parker threw:

Curveballs: 10
Riseballs: 7
Changeups: 6

 

[Hillhouse]

It's not a matter of whether a pitcher wants to throw a rise, it's more that they can't. I was at the Devens Thursday clinic and at 3 other 'Showcases' in the Southern Mass area. I saw one pitcher with a little backspin on her 'rise' and she threw it at 52 mph. How many pitchers did you see there with a true back spin rise? In a perfect world throwing North-South is great, in the real world throwing South is easy, throwing North is near impossible.

When a young pitcher wants to learn a spin pitch the knee jerk answer is 'learn the drop'. I would say that 80% of the young girls that I have worked with threw a near or pure top spin fastball. So learning the drop gives them 2 pitches that are basically the same. As far as whether the curve is an effective pitch Giselle Juarez threw her curve and won a WCWS championship. I was recently watching a video of former WCWS winner Megan King playing a game of PIG in a bullpen session, she threw her curve. And then there's this:

"One of the most successful pitchers in post-season history is Paige Parker from Oklahoma. In fact, this 2-time national champion suffered the first post season loss in her career this year. As a senior!
Paige Parker Pitcher Oklahoma WCWS Washington Pitches Women's College World Series 2018

So, let’s look at how Paige threw to Washington’s first 4 hitters, and just how many different pitches this 4-time All-American, and 2-time National Champion uses when it matters most:

To start the game, Parker threw to Washington’s top 4 batters, getting 2 strikeouts, 1 popup and one double. Out of a total of 23 pitches, Paige Parker threw:

Curveballs: 10
Riseballs: 7
Changeups: 6

Arm, in the comments about Ms. Parker's game vs. Wash.... were these pitches what YOU saw or 2 time Olympic Gold Medalist Michele Smith's commentary? The reason I ask is, I've seen her call pitches curve balls that weren't. Any lefty that throws an inside dropball, she'd call it a curve of some kind. I've seen her call low riseballs as "screwballs". Etc. Etc. So, I'm not challenging what you wrote, only asking.

Yesterday, Rich Balswick and I were talking on the phone. And we were marveling at a certain Pac 12 pitcher and her team's strategy vs. a conference opponent. The pitcher's best pitch is a dropball, that much is obvious But the opponents knew this and all they did was sit on the drop. They looked silly on riseballs but were hitting this All American pitcher hard because the coach either couldn't or wouldn't see what the batters were clearly doing. They didn't seem to have her picked, they just sat on a particular pitch. This pitch caller is obviously inept. There are things I see when I watch college softball that are so blatantly obvious to me, and I cannot understand how it's not seen by everyone. I once wrote Pat Murphy an email during WCWS to tell him his catcher was giving away pitches. I don't know if the opponents saw what I was seeing on TV but, Alabama did lose the game. He thanked me for the message and ironically the catcher changed in the next game I saw them play the following day.

I guess the point is, any pitch can be successful if it's thrown when the batter isn't looking for it. Even pitches that don't move and go right down the tube. lol Every pitcher has gotten away with those once in a while (and paid the price for them!!!).

 

[riseball]

Before you have multiple effective movement pitches you need to have the first one. IMHO the idea that you teach pitches in a certain order is foolish. Personally I would teach her whatever pitch comes naturally. When my youngest was in first year 14U I was teaching her to throw a curve. She struggled and we played around with it a bit. Then all of a sudden she drops her arm and throws a rise with pretty much perfect spin. I told her to keep throwing it and by the end of the session it felt pretty good. Only then did I tell her she was actually throwing a rise. Fast forward and that rise got her a HS National Player of the Year, a JUCO National Championship, and a pretty decent stint in the SEC. In hindsight I was pretty happy with my decision to ignore all of the "experts" that said she should throw a drop.

FWIW - She never did learn to throw a traditional curve but her 2 seam FB had the same effect, and she never did learn to throw a drop. But she wishes she had as it would have worked well for her. She did develop a decent flip change, which should only be thrown if you have or plan to develop a rise. Otherwise it becomes a meatball at the upper levels.

 

[ArmWhip]

Bill, the quote comes from an article by Cindy Bristow on her website Softball Excellence. The jist of the article was that you don't need 7 pitches, one of the best at that time, Parker, only used 3. I don't know her source. If it was Michelle Smith there would been some screwballs in there.

 

[Hillhouse]

Bill, the quote comes from an article by Cindy Bristow on her website Softball Excellence. The jist of the article was that you don't need 7 pitches, one of the best at that time, Parker, only used 3. I don't know her source. If it was Michelle Smith there would been some screwballs in there.

I've always liked Cindy, she would contract me out to go do international stuff 20 years ago for the ISF (now WBSC). She'd send me to Guatemala, while she'd go to Aruba. I'm not knocking Guatemala, I'm just saying I'd have rather gone to Aruba!!

Parker just took the PC job at Utah. Not sure how long she'll last, there's rampant rumors the HC at Utah is on thin ice. Usually when the HC is changed, the new coach cleans house with assistants. Not always but, usually.