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Apr 12, 2015
792
93
All that to say... we probably do need to teach I/R.
You have to teach it without teaching it. As soon as you teach the student to IR, it will become a forced motion and result in a far less effective whip. The same thing happens as soon as someone teaches a student to "get open" during the drive.

What is necessary is the set the stage and let the body handle things from there. If you teach to pull the ball down the back of the arm circle and lead with the pinky into release, the student will naturally IR without the teacher ever mentioning turning the hand over. A cue of "throw the ball, don't toss it" helps.

For stubborn cases, the reliable "bat drill" will show the correct way the arm works, all without ever mentioning IR to the student.
 
Aug 20, 2017
1,474
113
I get it but what motions ARE INTENTIONAL? Why say what not to teach without saying what to teach? Maybe I’m missing something
 
Jun 6, 2016
2,714
113
Chicago
You have to teach it without teaching it. As soon as you teach the student to IR, it will become a forced motion and result in a far less effective whip. The same thing happens as soon as someone teaches a student to "get open" during the drive.

What is necessary is the set the stage and let the body handle things from there. If you teach to pull the ball down the back of the arm circle and lead with the pinky into release, the student will naturally IR without the teacher ever mentioning turning the hand over. A cue of "throw the ball, don't toss it" helps.

For stubborn cases, the reliable "bat drill" will show the correct way the arm works, all without ever mentioning IR to the student.

I think this is fine for many students, sure. But that's still teaching IR. You still need to teach what needs to be done, but I agree you don't necessarily need to talk about IR.
 
Jun 6, 2016
2,714
113
Chicago
If these things occur naturally then there has to be an external constraint which causes kids to not do them (assuming the natural motion isn’t coached out of them from the beginning..) Perhaps a coach/parent screaming at them that they need to throw strikes?

Not sure what the solution to this is if this is true since pitching in a game does require you to throw strikes once in a while but perhaps more freedom to “fail” would be a start…

I think "occur naturally" and "is the default motion" are not the same thing.

"Occur naturally" really just means the body can easily/efficiently move in a certain way. That doesn't mean that kids default to moving in that way.

Show a group of ten kids what pitching looks like and say "Ok, now you do it" and almost all of them (at least 8) are going to just bowl the ball. I'm sure a lot of it is the kid's desire to make the ball go straight, though this probably would happen even without the "throw strikes" crowd.
 
Jun 8, 2016
16,118
113
I think "occur naturally" and "is the default motion" are not the same thing.

"Occur naturally" really just means the body can easily/efficiently move in a certain way. That doesn't mean that kids default to moving in that way.

Show a group of ten kids what pitching looks like and say "Ok, now you do it" and almost all of them (at least 8) are going to just bowl the ball. I'm sure a lot of it is the kid's desire to make the ball go straight, though this probably would happen even without the "throw strikes" crowd.
Fair. So what external cues can be used to get a kid to be most efficient if “throw straight” does the opposite? Throw hard? Throw long (with long toss)? The problem might be that kids start pitching in games almost right away which sort of requires you to throw straight..at least once in a while..lol.
 
Sep 15, 2015
98
33
The problem might be that kids start pitching in games almost right away which sort of requires you to throw straight..at least once in a while..lol.

That’s what I’ve always thought. On the baseball side, no one pitches from age 3-7, but everyone works on overhand throwing during that period. Imagine if on the softball side people were practicing their underhand toss for four or five years before they pitched.
 
Jul 16, 2013
4,659
113
Pennsylvania
If these things occur naturally then there has to be an external constraint which causes kids to not do them (assuming the natural motion isn’t coached out of them from the beginning..) Perhaps a coach/parent screaming at them that they need to throw strikes?

Not sure what the solution to this is if this is true since pitching in a game does require you to throw strikes once in a while but perhaps more freedom to “fail” would be a start…

When my daughter first started pitching at the age of 8 she did many of the things @Hillhouse mentions in the opening post. Obviously she still had a lot to learn, but some of those things came naturally without any training at all. We made the mistake of taking her to a local college coach for lessons. That coach believed in the HE method and tried to instruct DD that way. The comical part is that I would see DD throw the ball and have the proper arm action (I didn't know it was proper at the time...). She would quickly change the location of her arm to show her elbow pointing at the catcher. It was very obvious even to a novice like myself, yet it resulted in praise from the college coach for following her teaching.

Luckily she ended up with a different coach who's teaching is more in line with the experts at this site.
 
Oct 26, 2019
1,375
113
That’s what I’ve always thought. On the baseball side, no one pitches from age 3-7, but everyone works on overhand throwing during that period. Imagine if on the softball side people were practicing their underhand toss for four or five years before they pitched.
You hit the nail on the head with how I have always felt. My daughter is not the best pitcher in the world, but I believe has a good arm action with IR. I believe it was on here someone suggested to just learn how to throw underhand and not worry about “how to pitch“ so much.

One of the most helpful things we did and still sometimes do is I will hit her ground balls to work on her middle infield and she will throw one overhand and then one underhand to first.
 

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