coaches interfering with players

[Country Boy]

They want them swinging at any pitch that looks good from their bucket.

my issue is differentiating between getting a good cut at a good pitch and just taking a cut at a pitch because it's a strike.
They are assuming the swing and timing will be perfect. I see this akin to the coaches who claim "defense wins games" where they are assuming there will be enough offense to win.
There is no talk of pitch selection or discipline at the plate, which is what most of the responses here are getting at. IF the first pitch is a beauty, then crank it!
(The actual quote was "...defense wins Championships" and it was Bear Bryant talking about Football. Softball (and Baseball) are two of the few sports where you cannot score while playing defense.)

Well, we all know that the only people smarter than the ones on the buckets are the ones in the stands!

 

[obbay]

Well, we all know that the only people smarter than the ones on the buckets are the ones in the stands!

fair enough, but I would rather have a 6 pitch K in the books than a 1 pitch IF pop-up.

 

[quincy]

I always liked Ricky Henderson batting. He is an idiot and not a Team player but the pitcher better throw a good pitch to start the game or he would hit it hard.

 

[Country Boy]

fair enough, but I would rather have a 6 pitch K in the books than a 1 pitch IF pop-up.

Respectfully, I would like to bring a different perspective. In today's timed games, pitcher endurance is not a problem in my opinion. I can't remember the last time I thought we faced a pitcher that was wearing out based on that game. Now, I remember pitchers wearing out late on a Sunday, based on having thrown several games, but not in one game. So advocating working the count to wear out a pitcher in my current game is not a factor in my thinking. If I am worried about exhausting a pitcher, chances are I am helping out the next team to play her, not my team.

I am well known to my pitchers for preaching that, "We can't play defense against walks." I have the same perspective with K's. I realize some are going to happen. But I value a 1st pitch popout more than I do a 6 pitch K. A K places no pressure on the other team. At least with a popoput, you force the other team to make a play. Now, of course, there are situations and batters that may skew the perspective. But I will never see the K as anything other than the worst result possible when batting.

 

[StacieM]

I was like your daughter. After a while I NEVER swung at the first pitch because I had a coach that told me not to. After a string of popping up the first pitch all the time. I was told never to swing at it.

When I got to college, my coach used to force me to swing at the first pitch by giving me a hit and run whenever possible (because most coaches knew I took the first pitch and therefore, served it up down the middle to me).

In college I learned that I may only see the pitch I REALLY want ONCE during any given at bat. I learned to swing at it the first time I saw it because itʻs unlikely I will see it again in that at bat. Iʻd MUCH rather swing at a pitch I KNOW I can hit (even if itʻs the first one) rather than get stuck hitting the pitch the pitcher wants me to hit because I let my perfect one go by.

That said, I will NEVER swing at a first strike unless itʻs in the small zone that I like. Your daughter will be able to get away with that because she is probably as comfortable as I was with two strikes (I was actually MORE comfortable with two strikes than with any other count).

Of course, this requires that your daughter know HER zone VERY well!

On the contrary, my DD has played for two years for a coach that told her they do NOT take strikes. They MUST swing at any strike that comes their way. I donʻt care for this too much. It has her aggressive for sure, but I think sheʻd be a better hitter if she knew HER zone better and worked the pitcher to get what she wanted vs swinging at the first remotely good offering.

Just this weekend I mentioned to my husband that if I were pitching against her Iʻd throw high cheese on the very first pitch. Her very next at bat, thatʻs exactly what the opposing team did. After going 3 for 4 against them in the first game, they got her to pop up for an easy out on that high cheese pitch.

I like her aggressiveness, but she needs to balance it with a little more discipline and purpose in her at bat.

 

[chinamigarden]

I don't know, but I'm inclined to go with Ted Williams on this.

BTW, Ted said to never swing at a pitch until you've seen at least one. That meant that, on occasion, he'd reserve the right to swing at a first strike against a pitcher he'd seen before in an earlier at bat.

Ted Williams was a career 340+ hitter. He could coat his bat with pine tar, then tell you where the mark would be on the ball after he hit it. Not everyone can get away with letting a juicy pitch go by just because it is the first one.

 

[FPMark]

The more pitches you see, the better the odds of getting one you can hit. If you hit the first pitch, you will never get ahead in the count. If you do it every at bat, you will only see 3 or 4 pitches a game. I would trade seeing the pitcher's "go to" pitch for an 0-1 count any time. If you use a check swing to time it, you will be better prepaired if you see it again during any other at bats against that pitcher in that game. As a matter of fact, I would trade an 0-2 count to see the pitcher's 'go to' and 'favorite' pitches my first at bat. That could be valuble information later, when the game is on the line.

You are not going to wear the pitcher out physically by working the count, but you will see more pitches and have more of a possibility of the pitcher making a mistake while showing you everything she has. If you can work the count in your favor, well, remember that 'go to' pitch you didn't swing at? Get ready.

 

[jinjet95]

I think part of the strategy is where a batter is in the order. When facing a pitcher for the first time, the first couple of batters should work the count so that the team can see what a pitcher has and her pattern. Lead off and 2nd hitters are usually pretty good at this. By the time a few batters have come to the plate, you might pick up a pattern or at least know what a pitcher has in her arsenal. My DD's hitting coach teaches that the hitting zone gets bigger the more pitches you see. DD favorite pitch is a little up and over the inside half of the plate. If she sees it first pitch, she hits it. If not, she waits. Once she has a strike, then she needs to expand her hitting zone. I don't think one philosphy or another works for every batter in every situation.

 

[CoogansBluff]

The more pitches you see, the better the odds of getting one you can hit.

The more pitches that you take right down the middle for a strike, the lower the odds of getting a hit, IMO.

I just don't see the evidence to support the idea that it's so much harder to hit that first pitch, that you're liable to pop it up, or that taking the first pitch gives you the advantage of knowing that pitcher better.

The batting average in MLB baseball in 2011 for hitters who put the ball in play on the first pitch -- .330.

The batting average in MLB baseball in 2011 for hitters once they are down in the count 0-1 -- .225.

What do I take from those stats? If the first pitch is a fat one, you'd better smack it. If it's not, let it go. I agree w/ the idea of working the count, but not at the expense of taking fat pitches at 0-0.

MLB splits -

Major League 2011 Batting Splits - Baseball-Reference.com

 

[Country Boy]

This topic has me thinking. I wanted to know if stats were backing my perspective or not. Our team uses Gamechanger. Gamechanger, if you are not familiar with it, has a statistic for what percentage of a players at bats she sees 6+ pitches. So I compared the 3 players that have the highest % of 6+ pitches against the 3 with the lowest % of 6+ pitches. This does not directly relate to taking the first pitch, but knowing the players, it is a pretty close approximation.

The 3 with the highest % of 6+ pitch at bats hit .267 last year.
The 3 with the lowest % of 6+ pitch at bats hit .305 last year.

The 2 with the highest % of 6+ pitch at bats hit .230 last year.
The 2 with the lowest % of 6+ pitch at bats hit .317 last year.

If you could base anything off of this, it would be that seeing more pitches does not translate to better hitting. Unfortunately, this is a small database and I can't presume to extrapolate this data to all hitters everywhere.

I won't bore you with more numbers, but you should know that the 3 girls with the highest 6+ % are among the top 5 in both walks and strikeouts on my team. So based on my small group, seeing more pitches does not improve your batting avg, but it does increase the odds of walking or striking out.