closed hip

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May 12, 2008
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BLB,

Exactly.


Ken, does it makes sense to assume the hip movement is all or mostly from forces other than the muscles from the thigh to the lower torso acting directly on the hips to develop and transfer momentum/energy as part of a kinetic chain.
 

Ken Krause

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May 7, 2008
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I think it makes perfect sense, because you're talking about adding a horizontal movement to an action occuring on a vertical plane. It's not like hitting, where the moving part is going parallel to the ground. I think that's the flaw with trying to draw the same conclusions from hitting and softball pitching. The vertical nature makes it more purely linear than other activities. I also don't believe that a slight hip movement can have much impact on a kinetic chain that is otherwise focused on going forward. I've tried it and it doesn't seem to do anything for me.

One of the down sides of watching video is that we're making assumptions on what is happening based on what we see. Or what we think we see. Unless someone puts electrodes on a few pitchers and measures what happens with or without "hip snap" we're just speculating. From my vantage point, I've seen more pitchers struggle because they're trying to snap the hips than from any other cue or instruction. I'd say leave them out of the way and let the rest of the body do its job.

Of course, all of this is theoretical. I'd love to hear from any of those elite level pitchers to see if they're trying to do something specific with their hips, or whether stuff just happens.
 

sluggers

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May 26, 2008
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I took a portion of the Ueno commercial showing the pitching. What an athlete.

Anyway, it looks to me she closes to about 45-60 degrees and then she lets the ball comes through the hips. She doesn't close completely until the ball is quite a bit out of her hand.

<embed src="http://share.ovi.com/flash/player.aspx?media=sluggers.10004&channelname=sluggers.softball" width="512" height="420" type="application/x-shockwave-flash"></embed>
 
May 12, 2008
2,214
0
I think it makes perfect sense, because you're talking about adding a horizontal movement to an action occuring on a vertical plane. It's not like hitting, where the moving part is going parallel to the ground. I think that's the flaw with trying to draw the same conclusions from hitting and softball pitching. The vertical nature makes it more purely linear than other activities. I also don't believe that a slight hip movement can have much impact on a kinetic chain that is otherwise focused on going forward. I've tried it and it doesn't seem to do anything for me.

One of the down sides of watching video is that we're making assumptions on what is happening based on what we see. Or what we think we see. Unless someone puts electrodes on a few pitchers and measures what happens with or without "hip snap" we're just speculating. From my vantage point, I've seen more pitchers struggle because they're trying to snap the hips than from any other cue or instruction. I'd say leave them out of the way and let the rest of the body do its job.

Of course, all of this is theoretical. I'd love to hear from any of those elite level pitchers to see if they're trying to do something specific with their hips, or whether stuff just happens.


I think you err if you assume the musculature affecting the pelvis is not making significant contributions to the the motion of elite pitchers.
 
Going back to the post Sluggers made of the Ueno clip and to Marks point:

I've been filming recently with a company called Home Page. We are filming the release action of the hip/shoulders/fingers/wrist at 600 frames per second. What I see is similar to what Sluggers and Mark suggest---the hip closes to about 45 degrees and then stops it closing motion until after ball release--then it reinitiates its closing motion.
Similar action with the shoulders rotation---at release the shoulders stop the closing rotation--then reinitiate it after release. Without high speed camera work I doubt that this can be seen.
IMHO, I believe this to be the most efficient use of the body mechanics. It is a very basic athletic movement that most elite level athletes use in any sport requiring a rotating movement.
Have I seen successful softball pitchers that try to let the hand clear the hip before it rotates---yes. But in viewing the most elite pitchers they tend to use hip and shoulder rotation as I have described above. I find it interesting that the three pitchers on the USA Olympic team plus Ueno all display hip rotation prior to the hand entering the release zone.
This doesn't make it right, but if I'm going to emulate a particular type of pitch mechanics I think I'm going to emulate these ladies.
Rick
 

Ken Krause

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May 7, 2008
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Mundelein, IL
Actually, in the clip Mark points to Finch doesn't really display hip rotation as you describe. Could be a function of throwing the rise, but I don't see any early rotation, then stop, then start again. Ueno definitely does in the clip above. Cat is somewhere in between, but I still wonder about the cause/effect. Do her hips move because of the effort from her upper body, but she stops them to keep them out of the way, or is she consciously trying to close her hips to that point?

Not to knock the discussion completely off track, but take a look at the hand/arm position Ueno gets to around the 1:00 to 2:00 area. Does it look odd to you? It seems like she turns her forearm and the ball face up at that point.
 
Sep 29, 2008
1,401
63
Northeast Ohio
One thing I notice is her hips seem to start rotating back towards the target before her foot lands. It is at this point where it seems the closing rotation stops as Rick Pauly suggests or it least it has that appearance relative to the quick speed of the arm. Then as the arm passes the hip comes along for the ride. Does anyone else see that? It makes me wonder if this inward hip move is the first part of a chain that helps increase the speed of each connected part.
 
In response to lhowser: Again in high speed video of my DD, Sarah, her hip rotation has actually started prior to the landing foot being firmly planted. As she strides (leaps) out her landing foot is at about a 60 degree angle to the powerline--by the time the foot/heel has planted her foot has counter rotated back to about 45 degrees.
Mark you spend a lot of time looking at elite level hitters, do see some similarities?---I believe I have seen this similar foot rotation(and subsequent hip rotation) prior to heal plant in some big time major league power hitters.
Second point for lhowser---in most elite level pitchers I see the hip rotation initiated prior to the shoulder rotation. This is what is meant by moving up the kinetic chain. This is certainly evident in Ueno and I know it is what my DD does.
Rick
 
I think it makes perfect sense, because you're talking about adding a horizontal movement to an action occuring on a vertical plane. It's not like hitting, where the moving part is going parallel to the ground. I think that's the flaw with trying to draw the same conclusions from hitting and softball pitching. The vertical nature makes it more purely linear than other activities. I also don't believe that a slight hip movement can have much impact on a kinetic chain that is otherwise focused on going forward. I've tried it and it doesn't seem to do anything for me.

One of the down sides of watching video is that we're making assumptions on what is happening based on what we see. Or what we think we see. Unless someone puts electrodes on a few pitchers and measures what happens with or without "hip snap" we're just speculating. From my vantage point, I've seen more pitchers struggle because they're trying to snap the hips than from any other cue or instruction. I'd say leave them out of the way and let the rest of the body do its job.

Of course, all of this is theoretical. I'd love to hear from any of those elite level pitchers to see if they're trying to do something specific with their hips, or whether stuff just happens.

Ken
I believe that a misinterpretation of hip snap can lead to what you are suggesting. Many think the hip rotation is some kind of beautiful flowing circular movement---the reason I've always called it hip "snap" is because the hip snaps and then has a firming up stop at the 45 degree position mentioned earlier. For lack of a better term I call this a curvilinear motion. Lots of young pitchers tend to just flow through the firmed up/stopped phase and yes they often do get their hip in the way of the arm.

I recently attended a coaches clinic where a very "high profile pitching coach" was suggesting to keep the hips out of the way until the hand has passed them---she then demonstrated in slow motion her interpretation of this. I have to tell you it was difficult to watch someone do this---it just does not look like an athletic movement. It causes the pitcher to throw with all arm and upper body.
 

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