Charting pitchers

[FB Fool]

Interesting situation this weekend. DD was playing a team that consisted of former college players that were the coaches. They had aa assistant coach that was charting there own pitchers behind the backstop, then between innings the coach would sit down with the pitcher and talk about whatever they needed to. Seemed pretty smart to me. Come the third inning the field ump comes over and tells the coach she's not allowed to sit there and chart pitches and then go back to the dugout. Assistant coach goes nuts, head coach off, claiming they do it every game in college, field umps still says its illegal. 25 minutes later of arguing and bringing in the tournament director, no one seemed on the same page. assistant coach reluctantly returned to the dugout. this was a timed pool game(apparently time wasn't turned off during the arguments because there was no official protest) so game ended 0-0. so...

1. is it illegal to chart pitchers outside of the dugout?
2. how many teams do chart their pitchers? I really like the idea! what do you chart?

 

[Orange Socks]

From my knowledge, coaching is to be conducting in the dugout or within the confines of the field. Remember reading it somewhere, or at least I thought I did. Other umps here might be able to cite the code from the book.

 

[Vertigo]

How I’ve seen it in college is sometimes the players on the bench will sit behind the backstop, clock and chart pitches. Then in between innings give the info to the PC or whoever is calling pitches.

 

[Gags]

NCAA (2021):

5.9 Scouting Information and Electronic Equipment Use​

5.9.2 Only non-uniformed team personnel (including players) may be outside​

team areas for the purpose of scouting and videoing a contest, recording​

pitch speeds, charting pitches, keeping score or running the scoreboard, but​

in doing so, they render themselves ineligible for the game.​

5.9.6 Scouting information obtained from outside the dugout involving current​

opponents shall not be relayed or given to anyone on the playing field, in​

team areas or to team personnel during the contest.​

USSSA (2022):

RULE 11. SPORTING BEHAVIOR

Sec 2. A coach, player, substitute, attendant or other bench personnel shall not:​

J. Be outside the designated dugout/bench or bullpen areas unless they are a​

batter, runner, on-deck batter, in the coach’s box or one of the nine players​

on defense.​

O. Be located in the area behind the catcher while the opposing pitcher and​

catcher are in their positions.​

Similar to OS, I also thought I read a more specific rule about information being relayed from the stands to the dugout. NCAA 5.9 seems to imply this, but 5.9.6 says given to team personnel, and doesn't address the scenario of the team personnel being the ones collecting the info. 5.9.2 specifically mentions charting pitches, but looks like it's intended to address player eligibility for the current game, not what can or can't be done with the info collected. This example is another possible candidate of a rules committee not taking things to a logical conclusion to tie up any "loose ends" or offer clarifying language.

USSSA may be more restrictive by forcing everyone to stay in the dugout. USSSA doesn't really define coach / bench personnel / attendant - but again, like OS referenced, there's a ruleset somewhere that defines bench or team personnel, and I believe it includes a statement akin to "if you're collecting info for team use, you're personnel". Maybe it was USA or NFHS?

But enough rules discussion - I too would like to see how others are charting pitches, especially when the catcher is calling her own game, and it's harder to determine what was called vs. what was thrown vs. where the pitch actually ended up.

 

[uncdrew]

From my knowledge, coaching is to be conducting in the dugout or within the confines of the field. Remember reading it somewhere, or at least I thought I did. Other umps here might be able to cite the code from the book.

Yup.

But no reason you can't have a parent (i.e. non-coach) do it.

 

[PapaBear]

Interesting situation this weekend. DD was playing a team that consisted of former college players that were the coaches. They had aa assistant coach that was charting there own pitchers behind the backstop, then between innings the coach would sit down with the pitcher and talk about whatever they needed to. Seemed pretty smart to me. Come the third inning the field ump comes over and tells the coach she's not allowed to sit there and chart pitches and then go back to the dugout. Assistant coach goes nuts, head coach off, claiming they do it every game in college, field umps still says its illegal. 25 minutes later of arguing and bringing in the tournament director, no one seemed on the same page. assistant coach reluctantly returned to the dugout. this was a timed pool game(apparently time wasn't turned off during the arguments because there was no official protest) so game ended 0-0. so...

1. is it illegal to chart pitchers outside of the dugout?
2. how many teams do chart their pitchers? I really like the idea! what do you chart?

needs to be in the dugout just like any other coaching duty when on defense. calling, charting etc.

Part of coaching is talking to the pitcher and catcher in between innings to get their view of pitches and adjust based on what they say. Put up a GoPro and back and review later.

 

[GunnerShotgun]

then between innings the coach would sit down with the pitcher and talk about whatever they needed to. Seemed pretty smart to me.

What information is being passed along in the game that is of value? I guess it's equivalent to filming a hitter during the game and analyzing their swing between at-bats.

I just wonder how much value there is in that. Sure you can review after that game, but how much value are we talking about inning to inning?

What information are you deriving that you couldn't just ask the catcher?

 

[uncdrew]

What information is being passed along in the game that is of value? I guess it's equivalent to filming a hitter during the game and analyzing their swing between at-bats.

I just wonder how much value there is in that. Sure you can review after that game, but how much value are we talking about inning to inning?

What information are you deriving that you couldn't just ask the catcher?

I agree. It's like when some "Savvy Daddy" yells out "She hit a line drive to third last time". I mean perhaps it was an inside pitch, perhaps it was a change-up, perhaps...

I've never seen a dad yell that and it happen again in that at bat.

 

[FB Fool]

What information is being passed along in the game that is of value? I guess it's equivalent to filming a hitter during the game and analyzing their swing between at-bats.

I just wonder how much value there is in that. Sure you can review after that game, but how much value are we talking about inning to inning?

What information are you deriving that you couldn't just ask the catcher?

i dont know what kind of information, it was the opposing team. sure a savvy catcher could provide some information as far as umpire strike zone tendencies. but some of the time the catcher isn't available as they are preparing for their own at bat.

i thinking more about mechanics that a coach could pick up on, that small adjusts could be made. also speed, if they start to lose a few mph then its time to talk.
also if its a team you plan on seeing again, a spray chart based off of pitch location. but if your in the dugout and they miss the spot it will be hard to tell that, so in that case being behind the plate would be advantageous.

 

[radness]

Talk to the pitcher and catcher between innings.

They see what is happening with movement and location knowing what pitches are being called.