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Calling Pitches

Jun 7, 2019
145
28
Bottom line here is:

1) The field wasn't built two weeks ago, so this isn't the first time they've encountered this problem. The TD should have had a stipulation in the rules for that tournament and every other one about acceptable alternative arrangements as concerns this problem.

2) The home plate umpire made what he felt was a reasonable solution to this issue. Assuming the other coach was fine with the compromise, there's no problem here at all.

3) The UIC made what seems to be a rash, or rigid, decision in overturning a harmless but reasonable decision.

Bottom line is that I think that ArmWhip is right to be upset about the UIC's decision. Based only on what we know from his OP, sounds like the UIC did it only because "it's against the rules". For that, I think MadBandit22 said it best.

"Nothing worse than a stickler who won’t budge or ever entertain the idea of changing something to better suit all parties involved."
 

MTR

Jun 22, 2008
3,438
48
The bottom line here is where is the competitive advantage of having to go outside the dugout and field fence to call pitches?????? I would much prefer to be with my players on the bench.
It has nothing to do with an advantage, but safety and avoiding situations which could affect the action

And in this case I most certainly did not break the rules. "Coaches, players, substitutes .and other bench personnel shall not be allowed outside the designated bench,dugout/team area except when the rules allow or is JUSTIFIED BY THE UMPIRE." I pointed out the problem, which both plate umpires recognized, and received permission to be outside the dugout.
This "exception/allowance" are in place to accommodate older facilities that have dugouts too small for the teams. This permits designated areas outside of the field of play to be designated as a team area. It is not meant to permit anyone on to the playing that is not actively participating in the game at that particular moment."

However if you to go 'by the book' I did break the rules on several occasions. I ran to the restroom without checking with the umpire (that is in rules supplement). When we took the field between innings I sent a sub out to play catch with my left fielder. My scorekeeper parent was outside the dugout. I sent a pitcher-catcher combo outside the fence into a grassy area so my pitcher could have a little warmup before I put her into the game.
And absolutely none of that is even worth discussing as like the rest of your posts simply demonstrates you lack of knowledge.
 
Jun 7, 2019
145
28
This has NOTHING to do with MTR's reply to ArmWhip. But MTR's comment about lack of knowledge reminded me of a game I had yesterday. 16U, I had the bases in this game. Runner on 2nd, ground ball to SS. Runner runs into SS, hits her in the shoulder and spins her around. Plate umpire gets it out of his mouth first, dead ball, interference! The fans on the offense's side start yelling out that the runner is protected. Then they started yelling something about that their runner was "running in a straight line to the next bag". Two innings later, runner on 1st, a low blooper that the 2Bman probably wasn't going to catch in flight, but that she most likely had a great chance of fielding on one hop for a relatively easy flip to 1B for the out. Except that the runner on 1B plowed into her and flattened the 2Bman. Again, these nitwits start yelling that "straight line to the bag" crap. After the game (guess which side lost by 6 or 7 runs?), we're walking to our cars when this guy from that side walks up, and calmly tells us that they've been "reading the rule for the past 10 minutes", and that the runner is protected, and that we're misinterpreting the rule. We kept walking, except that I told him that he was missing the part about unless the fielder was in the act of fielding a batted ball. He didn't miss a beat in telling me I was wrong, and I didnt miss a step in continuing on to my car. It apparently never occurred to any of them that there was something odd or wrong with 2 of their runners crashing into two different fielders in the same game. Clueless.
 
May 29, 2015
1,749
113
Reading what rule?
The one we always play by. The base runner rule that says you are wrong.

Uh-huh. Reading it where?
Well, we were talking amongst ourselves.

Do you have a rule book?
You mean Google? We Googled it.

And what did it say?
You’re wrong. The runner gets priority. That should be interference on the defense.

It says that?
Oh yeah. Right in the Major League Baseball rules.

Baseball?
Well, it was the rules her mom said she played by when she was in school.

Right.
 
Jun 7, 2019
145
28
Reading what rule?
The one we always play by. The base runner rule that says you are wrong.

Uh-huh. Reading it where?
Well, we were talking amongst ourselves.

Do you have a rule book?
You mean Google? We Googled it.

And what did it say?
You’re wrong. The runner gets priority. That should be interference on the defense.

It says that?
Oh yeah. Right in the Major League Baseball rules.

Baseball?
Well, it was the rules her mom said she played by when she was in school.

Right.
Yes, that rule, in that book! 😁
 
May 29, 2015
1,749
113
I’ll keep playing along ...

As MTR said, the rules about who can be in the field are about safety and preventing issues during play.

However, I’ll humor you. If the other team is calling out signals, using a wrist band system, or just allowing their pitcher/catcher to call pitches ... they don’t need to leave the dugout. Why should you get an advantage just because you don’t use those systems?

I will agree with Testandor ... if that is that big of an issue for every team, there would be ground rules for that field that should always apply and be covered in the plate meeting. Similar to the field I posted about earlier.

As for the UIC telling the umpire after the fact ... getting teams into the dugout (no huddling when coming off defense, no lining up the whole offense to practice swinging when the pitcher is warming up, etc.) and keeping them in the dugout has been a point of emphasis for the last few years in multiple organizations. It has been brought up in the pre-tournament umpires’ meeting in almost every tournament I have umpired this year. Not sure if the UIC reviewed this with the umpire before your game or maybe did not (and should have).
 
May 15, 2008
712
43
Cape Cod Mass.
"However, I’ll humor you. If the other team is calling out signals, using a wrist band system, or just allowing their pitcher/catcher to call pitches ... they don’t need to leave the dugout. Why should you get an advantage just because you don’t use those systems?"

That's a valid point, however the opposite view would be "why should my team be penalized by a poorly designed field because I don't use those systems?"

I called a 16U coach in our organization, they had been at that facility 2 weeks before us, to see if he had played on that field. He said that the poor dugout visibility had been raised as an issue and that the umpires were allowing the coaches to sit inside the fence, on the field, to give signals to the catcher, something my umpires were not willing to do. His tournament was being run by a different group so maybe they were more on the ball.

The other thing I want to point out is that I have been at a lot of fields where the dugout area is not fenced in and no one has ever had a problem with a coach being 20-30 feet away from the bench (closer to home plate) giving signals. This could certainly be considered as being outside the bench/dugout area.
 
May 29, 2015
1,749
113
That's a valid point, however the opposite view would be "why should my team be penalized by a poorly designed field because I don't use those systems?"
Which was there first, the field or your team? ;)

WARNING: HYPERBOLE, SARCASM, PARODY, ETC. ...
My pitcher just moved up an age group. The pitching distance is poorly designed. I should be able to have her scoot up. Or let me use a pitching machine because I didn’t train any other pitchers.

I called a 16U coach in our organization, they had been at that facility 2 weeks before us, to see if he had played on that field. He said that the poor dugout visibility had been raised as an issue and that the umpires were allowing the coaches to sit inside the fence, on the field, to give signals to the catcher, something my umpires were not willing to do. His tournament was being run by a different group so maybe they were more less on the ball.
Fixed.

The other thing I want to point out is that I have been at a lot of fields where the dugout area is not fenced in and no one has ever had a problem with a coach being 20-30 feet away from the bench (closer to home plate) giving signals. This could certainly be considered as being outside the bench/dugout area.
Doesn’t make it legal.

14653

... look, all I am saying is the rules do NOT support your position. If you have an umpire that unknowingly lets you do it OR knowingly declares ground rules that allow you to do it today, that does NOT mean you should expect to do it tomorrow.
 
May 15, 2008
712
43
Cape Cod Mass.
WARNING: HYPERBOLE, SARCASM, PARODY, ETC. ...
My pitcher just moved up an age group. The pitching distance is poorly designed. I should be able to have her scoot up. Or let me use a pitching machine because I didn’t train any other pitchers.
Sorry, but you should probably stop your attempts at HYPERBOLE, SARCASM, PARODY, they are really weak, and that's being kind.

I'm not expecting anything other than umpires with common sense and good judgement which was what I saw except for one fat guy who wouldn't leave the shade next to the ice cream stand to take a look at the situation. Whereas you seem to want to castigate these umps because they weren't following the RULES.
 
Last edited:
May 29, 2015
1,749
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I don’t think any of us were castigating them. We were explaining to you why the rules are in place, why an umpire should follow them, and why the UIC corrected your umpire.

I get it though, you want an umpire with “common sense” meaning one who agrees with you and gives you what you want. That’s your prerogative.

I’m sorry you don’t like my attempt at humorously pointing out what you are requesting: I didn’t train my team to play under these conditions, so I am requesting a waiver of the rules.

If you get it, great. If the complex acknowledges the circumstance with a ground rule (making it legal), that’s ideal and even better. But you have no right to get into a snit when you are told no, you have to follow the rules.
 

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