Bullet Spin

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sluggers

Super Moderator
Staff member
May 26, 2008
7,132
113
Dallas, Texas
I've read and re-read this a few times, and honestly I can't follow it. I am not educated enough to understand Yaw or to know what a seam halo is. But I categorically disagree that a riseball does not need backspin. That is, a true riseball. Not someone throwing a ball 70mph with a high trajectory.

Come on, Bill. Differentiating pitches based on seam patterns is pretty standard. A two seam fastball has a green center and two red bars. On a four seam fastball, the ball is a greenish blob.

With a bullet spin pitch, a batters sees a green center and the red swirl around the outside of the green. I don't like the term "seam halo" either...but it is better than "seam penumbra". I guess you could it a "seam ring".

We have a video of the Garcia throwing a bullet spin pitch. The batter was Washington's Amirah Milloy...a senior with a .319 batting average. Milloy played PAC12 softball in college, and west coast softball before that. She is a good hitter, and gets completely fooled. She swings and misses it by six inches.

Either (1) Milloy is so undisciplined that she swing at high fastballs or (2) it was a riseball.


Due to the pandemic, I've watched the 2019 CWS finals a couple of times. Garcia keeps throwing something the Oklahoma batters swing under. Either the entire Oklahoma batting order sucks, or Garcia is throwing riseballs.

Go 2:13:00 of game 2 of the 2019 CWS and watch Garcia pitch to Shay Knighten. Knighten is one of the best hitters in college softball. Garcia starts her off with an outside fastball. On 1-0, Garcia throws something that Knighten swings under by 12 inches...it has to be a riseball. On 1-1, Garcia gives her another outside fastball. On 2-1, Garcia comes inside with a chest high fastball and Knighten murders it.
 
Nov 30, 2018
359
43
Marikina, Philippines
Of course, but then it's not really bullet spin is it?



So what do we call pitches that don't have their spin axis perfectly aligned? If a pitch has top spin but the axis is a little left or right of perpendicular to it's flight can it no longer be called a drop?
I define pitches by their predominate spin, and if it's close to a 50-50 mix I'll use both names, drop curve, rise curve, etc. To say it's a curve with yaw or a drop with yaw doesn't tell you much other than the spin axis isn't perfect.

Spot On!
When pitchers struggle for a period of time throwing a drop ball all the time in the dirt at or in front of the plate, I switch them to a "drop-curve". What else would you call it?
 
Nov 30, 2018
359
43
Marikina, Philippines
I've read and re-read this a few times, and honestly I can't follow it. I am not educated enough to understand Yaw or to know what a seam halo is. But I categorically disagree that a riseball does not need backspin. That is, a true riseball. Not someone throwing a ball 70mph with a high trajectory.

I feel the same way here sometimes. Terms and focuses for 12 year olds I have never heard of, yet I am in my 47th year. And I have seen one amazing girl who threw 7 pitches all with an identical cork-screw. Somehow giving them a conventional names did not change their trajectory.
 
Nov 30, 2018
359
43
Marikina, Philippines
I've read and re-read this a few times, and honestly I can't follow it. I am not educated enough to understand Yaw or to know what a seam halo is. But I categorically disagree that a riseball does not need backspin. That is, a true riseball. Not someone throwing a ball 70mph with a high trajectory.

Can you evaluate Garcia and Dallas Escobedo's rise ball release for us willing to listen? I think they have an unconventional release; snapping the index finger under the ball and palm down. Well faced Escobedo many times, and it was the only conclusion I could make. Odd if true. Escobedo lost her rise-ball her sophomore year and was very average at best until her senior year. Garcia gives up quite a few home-runs. I wonder if she looses some back-spin to offer up that cheese?
 
Dec 5, 2012
4,143
63
Mid West
As long as the axis of rotation is not Parallel to the line of travel the ball could have some yaw effect on it. True bullet spin is when you will see the axis of rotation pointed straight at the target. When this occurs the air pressure is even and equal all around the ball...When the air pressure is even there is zero movement. Yawed spin Will have the axis point angled in the direction of the break. It’s this angle that allows the air pressure to be higher on the bald spot side of the ball. Whenever there is an air pressure differential from one side of the ball to the other, the ball will always break towards the lower of the two pressures. The amount of air pressure differential will dictate how much break is achieved. I hope this helps clear things up.
 
Last edited:
Mar 10, 2020
734
63
As long as the axis of rotation is not Parallel to the line of travel the ball could have some yaw effect on it. True bullet spin is when you will see the axis of rotation pointed straight at the target. When this occurs the air pressure is even and equal all around the ball...When the air pressure is even there is zero movement. Yawed spin Will have the axis point angled in the direction of the break. It’s this angle that allows the air pressure to be higher on the bald spot side of the ball. Whenever there is an air pressure differential from one side of the ball to the other, the ball will always break towards the lower of the two pressures. The amount of air pressure differential will dictate how much break is achieved. I hope this helps clear things up.
Yeah keep it simple.
To achieve break spin the ball that desired direction.
Higher spin rev's create more rotational force.
Controling air pressure.
 
Mar 10, 2020
734
63
Differentiating pitches based on seam patterns is pretty standard.





A two seam fastball has a green center and two red bars. On a four seam fastball, the ball is a greenish blob.

With a bullet spin pitch, a batters sees a green center and the red swirl around the outside of the green. I don't like the term "seam halo" either...but it is better than "seam penumbra". I guess you could it a "seam ring".

We have a video of the Garcia throwing a bullet spin pitch. The batter was Washington's Amirah Milloy...a senior with a .319 batting average. Milloy played PAC12 softball in college, and west coast softball before that. She is a good hitter, and gets completely fooled. She swings and misses it by six inches.

Either (1) Milloy is so undisciplined that she swing at high fastballs or (2) it was a riseball.


Due to the pandemic, I've watched the 2019 CWS finals a couple of times. Garcia keeps throwing something the Oklahoma batters swing under. Either the entire Oklahoma batting order sucks, or Garcia is throwing riseballs.

Go 2:13:00 of game 2 of the 2019 CWS and watch Garcia pitch to Shay Knighten. Knighten is one of the best hitters in college softball. Garcia starts her off with an outside fastball. On 1-0, Garcia throws something that Knighten swings under by 12 inches...it has to be a riseball. On 1-1, Garcia gives her another outside fastball. On 2-1, Garcia comes inside with a chest high fastball and Knighten murders it.
This is it ^
Spin patterns, speed, rev's pretty standard.
 
Aug 21, 2008
2,359
113
Come on, Bill. Differentiating pitches based on seam patterns is pretty standard. A two seam fastball has a green center and two red bars. On a four seam fastball, the ball is a greenish blob.

With a bullet spin pitch, a batters sees a green center and the red swirl around the outside of the green. I don't like the term "seam halo" either...but it is better than "seam penumbra". I guess you could it a "seam ring".

We have a video of the Garcia throwing a bullet spin pitch. The batter was Washington's Amirah Milloy...a senior with a .319 batting average. Milloy played PAC12 softball in college, and west coast softball before that. She is a good hitter, and gets completely fooled. She swings and misses it by six inches.

Either (1) Milloy is so undisciplined that she swing at high fastballs or (2) it was a riseball.


Due to the pandemic, I've watched the 2019 CWS finals a couple of times. Garcia keeps throwing something the Oklahoma batters swing under. Either the entire Oklahoma batting order sucks, or Garcia is throwing riseballs.

Go 2:13:00 of game 2 of the 2019 CWS and watch Garcia pitch to Shay Knighten. Knighten is one of the best hitters in college softball. Garcia starts her off with an outside fastball. On 1-0, Garcia throws something that Knighten swings under by 12 inches...it has to be a riseball. On 1-1, Garcia gives her another outside fastball. On 2-1, Garcia comes inside with a chest high fastball and Knighten murders it.

I'm not trying to be difficult or argumentative but I've never heard what you're talking about before. "Green center" or "2 red bars". But, I am not sure how anything would effect the basic point of a ball needing backspin.

Based off what I've seen on TV, it looks like Ms. Garcia isn't getting backspin on her rise. But when you're throwing in the low 70's from 43 feet away, she's going to get a lot of strikeouts no matter how her ball is spinning. With that said, it appears her pitching coach let her be satisfied with a bulletspin pitch. Probably because she was still throwing exceptionally hard and getting results regardless. Maybe I'm delusional but I don't think it'd take me very long to be able to recognize that spin from her hand if I was batting off her. With the spin easily identifiable and the difficulty she has keeping the pitch on the margins of the strikezone, I wouldn't think it'd be terribly hard to learn to lay off it pretty quickly. An obvious advantage of a pitcher who can throw a rise with close to 6/12 spin is, it takes an additional split second to figure out if the ball is spinning forward (dropball) or backward (riseball) for adjustments in the swing. Sometimes that split second is too late.
 
May 15, 2008
1,913
113
Cape Cod Mass.
The point of my OP seems to have been lost. Here is a diagram that will illustrate what I was talking about.


As the ball loses speed and starts to change trajectory (drops) the airflow over the ball changes, but due to it's gyroscopic nature the seam rotation remains the same, this causes a change in the Magnus Force and the ball changes direction. If you throw a bullet spin pitch off a cliff the axis of rotation will stay the same but as the ball loses velocity and 'falls' the effective air flow changes. Eventually the ball will be falling straight down but the bulletspin axis still holds and the ball will curve in the direction of the spin.

I brought up G Juarez because her slow curve has the spin axis tilted at about 45 degrees into the line of flight, thus when the ball loses velocity and drops the bullet/curve spin becomes effectively more curvy.
 
Last edited:
May 15, 2008
1,913
113
Cape Cod Mass.
When a batter looks at a pitched ball what he sees is dependent on two things: the axis of spin and orientation of the seams. Two pitches with identical spin may look different because their seam orientation (how they were gripped seam wise) is different. "Green center" or "2 red bars" depends on these 2 factors.
 

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