Bizarre look back rule interpretation

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sluggers

Super Moderator
Staff member
May 26, 2008
7,132
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Dallas, Texas
Abandonment — did the runner leave live ball territory? No. Not an option for an out.

Do you have an NFHS book? There are so many different rules for abandonment.

The NCAA rule on abandonment is different.

12.11.4 After reaching a base safely, the runner abandons her base (for example, obviously heads toward her position or the dugout believing she was put out, the batted ball was foul, etc.), or leaves the field of play for any reason.
EFFECT—The ball is live. The batter-runner or base runner(s) is out. Each
other runner may advance with liability to be put out.

The USSSA rule is different as well:

Sec. 18 (Q) [A runner is out] after at least touching first base, the runner leaves the baseline, obviously abandoning their effort to touch the next base.


The NSA rules have the batter-runner out when she leaves the field of play.

The ISF rule is odder:

50d. [The batter-runner is out] when he fails to advance to first base and instead enters his team area
1. After a fair ball is hit, or
2. After a base on balls is issued, or
3. Anytime that he may legally advance to first base
...
9x. [A runner is out] when he abandons a base and enters his team area, or leaves the field of play, while the ball is alive
 
Last edited:
Nov 22, 2019
194
43
Minnesota, USA
Based on this part from what maninblue shared I would say she is out.

1576075166364.png

If the pitcher had the ball in the circle it doesn't really matter that the runner never stopped moving as she was not immediately returning to the base or advancing to the next base, therefore, she would be out.

At 10C I could see an ump letting this go IF a run hadn't scored.
 
Sep 29, 2014
2,421
113
^^^ this is why timing would be important to see; she doesn't have this non stop requirement until the pitcher has the ball and this is actually different than the immediately rule for the other instances probably because there is no urgent need for her to do anything since she is safe at first and can't advance without being called out...whole thing does kinda get silly but still IMO only way to call her out is to make the judgement call that she was not "non stop"
 
May 29, 2015
3,731
113
Sorry, @sluggers is right ... know your code!

NFHS it is 8-4-19 (circa the 2016 book, but it is still the same in the just issued 2020 book)92E39626-7DD7-49B9-9D64-833D6952A495.jpeg


USA Softball 8-7-U

3C8925BF-940D-457C-921B-CF86515E707D.jpeg

NOTE: In USA it becomes a dead ball, in NHFS it remains live.

OPINION: The USSSA wording is AWFUL. “Leave the baseline”? So if a runner runs off of the white chalk, she is out. :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:
May 29, 2015
3,731
113
Based on this part from what maninblue shared I would say she is out.

View attachment 15767

If the pitcher had the ball in the circle it doesn't really matter that the runner never stopped moving as she was not immediately returning to the base or advancing to the next base, therefore, she would be out.

At 10C I could see an ump letting this go IF a run hadn't scored.

That is what I was hanging my hat on (I still don’t like the call though). Not so much what she did or did not do after leaving the base, but based on the requirements on the runner.

Did we ever get confirmation on what code this was played under?
 
Aug 1, 2019
195
43
South Carolina
Based on this part from what maninblue shared I would say she is out.

View attachment 15767

If the pitcher had the ball in the circle it doesn't really matter that the runner never stopped moving as she was not immediately returning to the base or advancing to the next base, therefore, she would be out.

At 10C I could see an ump letting this go IF a run hadn't scored.
Yeah, but when the batter-runner overran first and then turned right, the ball wasn't in the circle with the pitcher. From the original post, the pitcher received the ball after "The batter goes back towards home on her way to the 3rd base dugout." So the LBR was not in effect when she turned after overrunning the base and started heading back toward first. Rather, it went into effect when the batter-runner was somewhere between first and home. And when it went into effect, the batter-runner is afforded the opportunity to stop and then immediately make the decision to head back to first, which is what she did.
 
Nov 22, 2019
194
43
Minnesota, USA
Yeah, but when the batter-runner overran first and then turned right, the ball wasn't in the circle with the pitcher. From the original post, the pitcher received the ball after "The batter goes back towards home on her way to the 3rd base dugout." So the LBR was not in effect when she turned after overrunning the base and started heading back toward first. Rather, it went into effect when the batter-runner was somewhere between first and home. And when it went into effect, the batter-runner is afforded the opportunity to stop and then immediately make the decision to head back to first, which is what she did.

Technically you're right the LBR doesn't apply at this point because based on the USA Softball rules she abandoned the base so the play was dead and she should have been out. Plus, the runner from third should have been sent back instead of getting a run since the play should have been called dead.

Like the man in blue mentioned, I don't believe we know what code this game was under at the time either.
 
May 29, 2015
3,731
113
Yeah, but when the batter-runner overran first and then turned right, the ball wasn't in the circle with the pitcher. From the original post, the pitcher received the ball after "The batter goes back towards home on her way to the 3rd base dugout." So the LBR was not in effect when she turned after overrunning the base and started heading back toward first. Rather, it went into effect when the batter-runner was somewhere between first and home. And when it went into effect, the batter-runner is afforded the opportunity to stop and then immediately make the decision to head back to first, which is what she did.

That’s the timing piece I was unclear about. If it is as you say, I agree all the way.
 
May 29, 2015
3,731
113
Technically you're right the LBR doesn't apply at this point because based on the USA Softball rules she abandoned the base so the play was dead and she should have been out. Plus, the runner from third should have been sent back instead of getting a run since the play should have been called dead.

Like the man in blue mentioned, I don't believe we know what code this game was under at the time either.

That was why I posted the abandonment piece ... I knew somebody would get it wrong. If she didn’t enter the dugout or dead ball territory, she isn‘t out and the ball is still live.
 

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