Bizarre look back rule interpretation

[CHSUmp97]

Technically you're right the LBR doesn't apply at this point because based on the USA Softball rules she abandoned the base so the play was dead and she should have been out.

No, not really under USA Softball. USA, like NFHS, requires the runner to actually enter dead-ball area for abandonment to take place. She can be wandering around the field and still be a viable runner.

 

[BradyC87]

No, not really under USA Softball. USA, like NFHS, requires the runner to actually enter dead-ball area for abandonment to take place. She can be wandering around the field and still be a viable runner.

If it is not considered abandonment then the LBR would apply. The pitcher was in the circle with the ball and the player was still headed towards the dugout based on the timeline of events the OP posted. At the time the pitcher gained control of the ball in the circle she was neither returning to the base or advancing to the next base, she's out. Like it's been mentioned already it really depends on the timing.

Situations like this should really be used as a learning experience for the girls at this level. Put the runner safe on 1B and return the runner to 3B since she only scored because the 1B coach and batter-runner didn't know what was going on which led to the pitcher throwing the ball to 1B allowing the runner on 3B to score.

 

[CHSUmp97]

At the time the pitcher gained control of the ball in the circle she was neither returning to the base or advancing to the next base, she's out.

I don't see anything in the LBR that says that a runner has to be returning to a base or advancing to the next base once the ball is in the circle. All it says is that once LBR is in effect, a runner off a base is allowed one stop, and then must immediately advance or return.

Suppose the throw beats out the batter-runner going to first base, but the first baseman wasn't on the bag. The batter-runner continues to overrun first, and then she turns wide right and starts jogging towards her dugout on the first-base side, thinking she's out. The first baseman sees that, and immediately throws the ball to the pitcher in the circle. Are you going to rule her out because at the precise moment LBR went into effect, she's not returning to first base? I do not believe the LBR says that.

If it did, there would be no real reason for an abandonment rule. All the defense would have to do to record an out when they see a runner heading in ANY direction other than to the advance base or the previous base is throw the ball in the circle. The LBR language does not support that premise.

 

[BradyC87]

I don't see anything in the LBR that says that a runner has to be returning to a base or advancing to the next base once the ball is in the circle. All it says is that once LBR is in effect, a runner off a base is allowed one stop, and then must immediately advance or return.

Suppose the throw beats out the batter-runner going to first base, but the first baseman wasn't on the bag. The batter-runner continues to overrun first, and then she turns wide right and starts jogging towards her dugout on the first-base side, thinking she's out. The first baseman sees that, and immediately throws the ball to the pitcher in the circle. Are you going to rule her out because at the precise moment LBR went into effect, she's not returning to first base? I do not believe the LBR says that.

If it did, there would be no real reason for an abandonment rule. All the defense would have to do to record an out when they see a runner heading in ANY direction other than to the advance base or the previous base is throw the ball in the circle. The LBR language does not support that premise.

The LBR only comes into effect once the pitcher has possession and control of the ball in the circle. I think that is the whole essence of the rule. Yes, it says "a runner off a base is allowed one stop, and then must immediately advance or return" but this player was a batter-runner so its a different responsibility.


Technically once she came back past first base and started to head to the dugout she was no longer returning to the base so she would be out. There is the exception that since once she started running back to first base again the pitcher "made a play" by throwing the ball to 1st base but by rule once the batter-runner did not return to first base initially the ball was dead and the batter-runner was out, therefore, there was no play.

It really just comes down to timing and lack of field awareness but at 10C that isn't a huge surprise. A majority of our 10C players are girls that are either new to softball in general or moving from 8U to 10U which is why I personally would prefer a situation like this be used as a learning experience either by the umpire and/or the coaches to explain to the girls what happened.

 

[The Man In Blue]

No, not really under USA Softball. USA, like NFHS, requires the runner to actually enter dead-ball area for abandonment to take place. She can be wandering around the field and still be a viable runner.

NFHS has the same requirement.

 

[CloudofDust]

That is what I was hanging my hat on (I still don’t like the call though). Not so much what she did or did not do after leaving the base, but based on the requirements on the runner.

Did we ever get confirmation on what code this was played under?

This was a USA Softball tournament.

That’s the timing piece I was unclear about. If it is as you say, I agree all the way.

Yes, CHSUmp97 is correct on the timing.

I'm glad you guys are debating this as much as you are...makes me feel better about not knowing the exact interpretation at the time of the ruling) although I felt she should have been allowed to stay on 1B. In talking with the field umpire prior to the game, he mentioned he normally umped 18U PGF tournaments, but he was clearly letting the opposing team's coach talk him into this one as he was unsure of the call. I debated with him for a few minutes and then the HC on our team grew impatient and wanted to continue play. Again, the hard part for me was that it was my daughter but, on the other hand, it was my daughter, not another kid who's hit I ruined!

 

[The Man In Blue]

To me, that is much of the fun ... those tiny, critical pieces that change everything due to a slight change in language or timing.