"Big dog pitcher" a dying breed?

[riseball]

Are there still BIG DOG PITCHERS?

YES

How many coaches would not use a BIG DOG?

College has more options than travel ball teams with ability to recruit what they want.

Travel ball...come on now Riseball...you know what happens!
Are you thinking travel ball coaches wont utilize their ACE?

Sure a coach will use a "Big Dog" if they have one. Just like they would drive a new Cadillac if they had one instead of 20 year old Honda. But what happens when that "Big Dog" get hurts, flunks out, or is otherwise not available? Saw this play out first hand in 2016 at LSU. Most coaches do not want that risk as it means season over. Bottom line is in both TB and College the game has evolved past riding the big arm. @sluggers was well ahead of the curve when he posted 11 years ago. Back then they were on a decrease, and the numbers have continued to trend downward since them. Need to break loose of the nostalgia of what was and see the reality of what is happening today.

 

[radness]

Sure a coach will use a "Big Dog" if they have one. Just like they would drive a new Cadillac if they had one instead of 20 year old Honda. But what happens when that "Big Dog" get hurts, flunks out, or is otherwise not available? Saw this play out first hand in 2016 at LSU. Most coaches do not want that risk as it means season over. Bottom line is in both TB and College the game has evolved past riding the big arm. @sluggers was well ahead of the curve when he posted 11 years ago. Back then they were on a decrease, and the numbers have continued to trend downward since them. Need to break loose of the nostalgia of what was and see the reality of what is happening today.

Nostalgia digs get you nowhere!
I continue to be involved in fastpitch!

Simply commenting BIG DOG PITCHERS are still part of fastpitch!

Thankfully there is massive amounts of teams in so cal.
Of all age levels, top tier, and colleges.
Glad i have the opportunity to see whats happening hands on!

 

[Orange Socks]

To answer your original Post. Yes, the Big Dog is a dying breed...for the most part. Not so much on a HS team. I have seen a HS coach use their ace for just about every inning not giving the 2nd or 3rd pitcher a chance to play, which hurts them when they get to the playoffs. When this team plays a team that they will run rule in 4 innings, the 2nd or 3rd pitcher is still sitting on the bench, meanwhile the coach is patting themselves on the back for doing such a great job. I find it embarrassing. And the parents are so happy too while this pitcher and batters get to pad their stats for all region awards. Then they wonder why they can't make it past the 2nd round of playoffs. Hey we hit 57 HRs! Our ace pitcher only lost 2 games all season, but her arm is dead by the end of the season. Our 2nd pitcher lost the game for us because she couldn't find the strike zone. Hmm...wonder why. She only got 6 innings of work the whole season. Rant over!

For HS, if you have a girl that can actually pitch it is a blessing unless you go to a power house program that benefits from a great rec league program that pumps out pitchers that eventually move on to TB. In TB most teams will have 3-4 pitchers that have to get their innings. From 10U-14U most tourneys end up with some type of winner. Those coaches might lean on their #1 when they need to win, but must have other pitchers complimenting the Ace. The other thing that has changed over the years is the recognition of arm/shoulder health. You are seeing more coaches/parents keeping an eye on pitch count.

In TB with the higher caliber teams, you are less likely to have a Big Dog. You will see a stable of pitchers ready to plug and play.

Look at college. Okay Rachel Garcia is a unicorn that can do it all while barely breaking a sweat. Think about all college programs today. You have to have more than one pitcher. Friday-Single Game and Saturday double headers like Riseball said. The coaches are playing in the present, but are recognizing that they will have 2 more games go to go. They have a rotation that they have to get through. YES. There clearly might be a #1 pitcher that the coach will go to when they have to have a win, but they are not pitching 90-100% of the innings. We would consider that inhumane!

 

[radness]

To answer your original Post. Yes, the Big Dog is a dying breed...for the most part. Not so much on a HS team. I have seen a HS coach use their ace for just about every inning not giving the 2nd or 3rd pitcher a chance to play, which hurts them when they get to the playoffs. When this team plays a team that they will run rule in 4 innings, the 2nd or 3rd pitcher is still sitting on the bench, meanwhile the coach is patting themselves on the back for doing such a great job. I find it embarrassing. And the parents are so happy too while this pitcher and batters get to pad their stats for all region awards. Then they wonder why they can't make it past the 2nd round of playoffs. Hey we hit 57 HRs! Our ace pitcher only lost 2 games all season, but her arm is dead by the end of the season. Our 2nd pitcher lost the game for us because she couldn't find the strike zone. Hmm...wonder why. She only got 6 innings of work the whole season. Rant over!

For HS, if you have a girl that can actually pitch it is a blessing unless you go to a power house program that benefits from a great rec league program that pumps out pitchers that eventually move on to TB. In TB most teams will have 3-4 pitchers that have to get their innings. From 10U-14U most tourneys end up with some type of winner. Those coaches might lean on their #1 when they need to win, but must have other pitchers complimenting the Ace. The other thing that has changed over the years is the recognition of arm/shoulder health. You are seeing more coaches/parents keeping an eye on pitch count.

In TB with the higher caliber teams, you are less likely to have a Big Dog. You will see a stable of pitchers ready to plug and play.

Look at college. Okay Rachel Garcia is a unicorn that can do it all while barely breaking a sweat. Think about all college programs today. You have to have more than one pitcher. Friday-Single Game and Saturday double headers like Riseball said. The coaches are playing in the present, but are recognizing that they will have 2 more games go to go. They have a rotation that they have to get through. YES. There clearly might be a #1 pitcher that the coach will go to when they have to have a win, but they are not pitching 90-100% of the innings. We would consider that inhumane!

Good point regarding h.s.
See this same scenario in travel ball.
Same thing on t.b. teams that have a mixed pitching roster.
Top tier team get 3 good pitchers
Competing for championship game.
Mid level teams get one who they utilize most.
...type of thing.

 

[Laphoneman]

My DD is the #1 pitcher on our team. And we love our 3 pitcher squad. Pitching 4-5 games a day in a tournament is not fun. Sharing the load and pitching 2 games takes physical and mental pressure off the girls and keeps it fun. We have 3good pitchers though average 1 -2 walk a day. We never face a game without a pitcher that is ready to go.

 

[radness]

My DD is the #1 pitcher on our team. And we love our 3 pitcher squad. Pitching 4-5 games a day in a tournament is not fun. Sharing the load and pitching 2 games takes physical and mental pressure off the girls and keeps it fun. We have 3good pitchers though average 1 -2 walk a day. We never face a game without a pitcher that is ready to go.

Good for her!
Whats makes her standout as the #1?

 

[erniekru]

Hmm, getting to this thread late.
Big Dog a dying breed???? No way. From what I've seen, the very best pitchers are in a class of their own. There are more very talented pitchers than ever, but for some reason, that gap to the very very best in their craft is still sizable.

Now, do I believe big dogs can and should pitch every inning of every game? No way. Friendlies and showcases should share pitching time equally between the entire pitching roster. Coaches, in games played to win, will use the most effective pitcher(s) they have access to for the game that's being played. If that is only one pitcher, then the answer is quite simple. If a team has a 1A and 1B pitcher then I would be surprised if they weren't used to their greatest effect.

DD's #1 pitcher is absolutely a big dog. According to rankings, which obviously have their own issues, she's in the top 5 in the nation. The dominance she displays and her longevity are astounding. Our team is stacked with pitching but the #1 is on another level. In a best of 3 championship series, our #2 started game 1 which we lost. #1 pitcher threw game 2 for a W and game 3 for a narrow low scoring loss. 14 innings of straight handcuffing a very strong 2nd yr 14u team. She went through the order probably 7-8 times in the two 7 inning games and gave up 3 runs.

FWIW, #1 pitcher is PO, she never bats which is her preference.

 

[Laphoneman]

We are 14 u We don’t really list them as #1 #2
DD pitches 54 good control has movement on pitches
next girl is 48 can hit spots no movement HE pitcher
next girl is 45 keeps it close enough to strike zone HE pitcher
they can all throw a 1st pitch strike on demand they all get starts if they do walk a batter its on purpose or you hear grumbling from the stands because so close. So I guess I based it on speed. She is the pitcher I hear the other teams saying I hope she isn’t pitching as they walk by.

 

[_MIA_]

I am not really a dog lover but I reallyshould hate the little yappy ones...is that what we are talking about here?

In reality this discussion should really only be for levels of fastpitch where winning is more important than development and we are making a distinction between the pitcher you would want pitching your most important game in a perfect world (e.g. the ace) and a pitcher who does pitch every important game regardless of circumstance (big dog)..

 

[erniekru]

I am not really a dog lover but I reallyshould hate the little yappy ones...is that what we are talking about here?

In reality this discussion should really only be for levels of fastpitch where winning is more important than development and we are making a distinction between the pitcher you would want pitching your most important game in a perfect world (e.g. the ace) and a pitcher who does pitch every important game regardless of circumstance (big dog)..

So "aces" are different than "big dogs"... I was totally misunderstanding, I thought that the one in a thousand "aces" was the "big dog" and that the argument was that they were a dying breed due to not being as relevant as before. Now I'm confused... What's the argument?