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Jan 27, 2019
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NFHS Rule 2-11 Article 1 A Fair ball is a batted ball that:
a. a settles OR IS TOUCHED on or over fair territory between home and first base or home and third base
d. while over fair territory touches person of any umpire OR PLAYER or their clothing or equipment

If a batted ball is in fair territory between first and third and IS TOUCHED then it is a fair ball regardless of whatever else happens to the ball no matter who touches the ball. The batter's box is not mentioned in this definition of a fair ball.

So with an established fair ball that is touched while over fair territory and rule 8-2 article 7 supporting the out ruling, you and the straw umpires who you say support your interpretation have no legal standing.

You asked for rules from the book. You have been provided rules and definitions and the discussion has continued as nauseum. I also will bow out of the argument because you are not willing to hear what you do not want to. The batter-runner who contacts a fair batted ball on her way to first, even if she's in the box, by rule should be called out.

"In your interpretation, a batted ball is immediately a fair ball and the batter becomes a batter runner who is allowed to run the bases regardless of any ensuing action. I disagree and I've seen many umpires interpret the rules that same as I have."--Bobby Shirer

With a runner on first, is she supposed to wait and see if a play is made or the ball comes to rest before being forced from second? Does the batter remain in the box and wait for a call on a ball hit down the line? She is entitled to begin to run to first and when the ball becomes foul she is no longer a batter-runner, she returns to the box to finish her at bat.
 
Jul 29, 2013
1,199
63
NFHS Rule 2-11 Article 1 A Fair ball is a batted ball that:
a. a settles OR IS TOUCHED on or over fair territory between home and first base or home and third base
d. while over fair territory touches person of any umpire OR PLAYER or their clothing or equipment

If a batted ball is in fair territory between first and third and IS TOUCHED then it is a fair ball regardless of whatever else happens to the ball no matter who touches the ball. The batter's box is not mentioned in this definition of a fair ball.

So with an established fair ball that is touched while over fair territory and rule 8-2 article 7 supporting the out ruling, you and the straw umpires who you say support your interpretation have no legal standing.

You asked for rules from the book. You have been provided rules and definitions and the discussion has continued as nauseum. I also will bow out of the argument because you are not willing to hear what you do not want to. The batter-runner who contacts a fair batted ball on her way to first, even if she's in the box, by rule should be called out.

"In your interpretation, a batted ball is immediately a fair ball and the batter becomes a batter runner who is allowed to run the bases regardless of any ensuing action. I disagree and I've seen many umpires interpret the rules that same as I have."--Bobby Shirer

With a runner on first, is she supposed to wait and see if a play is made or the ball comes to rest before being forced from second? Does the batter remain in the box and wait for a call on a ball hit down the line? She is entitled to begin to run to first and when the ball becomes foul she is no longer a batter-runner, she returns to the box to finish her at bat.
A runner on first could certainly wait until the play is made but there is no penalty for proceeding and with the status in doubt it might be in her interest to run anyway. The same applies to the batter of a batted ball.
Even though the batters box isn't mentioned in the definition of fair ball, the situation of a batter touching a ball anywhere in the batters box causes the ball to become foul per the rules.

Then there's this, prior to the point in time when the ball is touched, the player is a batter and we have two possibilities: the batter in the box touches the ball and the ball becomes foul, or the batter in the box touches the ball and the ball becomes fair and the batter becomes a batter runner. Either way, at the time the ball is touched the batter is a batter and not a batter runner and touching changes the balls status and in your scenario changes the batters status too. I say the batters box makes a difference.

I understand your argument. I disagree and I suggest you contact NFHS for a clarification and maybe they re-write the rule book to make their intention more clear. Meanwhile, umpires everywhere will be calling balls that are touched by batters who are in the fair territory area of the batters box, foul balls. Maybe they know something you don't?
 
Last edited:
May 29, 2015
3,731
113
So ... the trees have blocked out our view of the forest. What the rules have shown is not that the debate over fair/foul/Schrodinger matters ... the basic question that has gotten lost is this:

In foul territory, this doesn’t matter. But in fair territory, did the ball touch the batter or did the batter touch the ball? That is what it boils down to.

Perhaps an NFHS interpretation would be appropriate. We can agree on that.
 
Jul 29, 2013
1,199
63
So ... the trees have blocked out our view of the forest. What the rules have shown is not that the debate over fair/foul/Schrodinger matters ... the basic question that has gotten lost is this:

In foul territory, this doesn’t matter. But in fair territory, did the ball touch the batter or did the batter touch the ball? That is what it boils down to.

Perhaps an NFHS interpretation would be appropriate. We can agree on that.
SECTION 64 TOUCHING
Touching is contact with the ball, equipment or a person. There is no distinction between the act of touching and being touched. It applies to a pitched ball touching a batter, a batted ball touching the batter or any runner, catcher touching the bat, player touching a base, or ball touching a player or non-player. The term applies to contact with any part of the person or her clothing if the clothing is reasonably well fitted.

In the NCAA championship game, the Oklahoma catcher nearly tagged the UCLA runner's ponytail as the runner slid into the plate. What's the call if she does indeed tag her ponytail?
 
May 29, 2015
3,731
113
SECTION 64 TOUCHING
Touching is contact with the ball, equipment or a person. There is no distinction between the act of touching and being touched. It applies to a pitched ball touching a batter, a batted ball touching the batter or any runner, catcher touching the bat, player touching a base, or ball touching a player or non-player. The term applies to contact with any part of the person or her clothing if the clothing is reasonably well fitted.

In the NCAA championship game, the Oklahoma catcher nearly tagged the UCLA runner's ponytail as the runner slid into the plate. What's the call if she does indeed tag her ponytail?

Good find. That does remove our interpretation of who/what initiates contact. Now we have two rules that are odds with one another and there is no “order of operations” we can apply.

I’m wondering if there is a rules interpretation that can be applied.
 

MTR

Jun 22, 2008
3,438
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Good find. That does remove our interpretation of who/what initiates contact. Now we have two rules that are odds with one another and there is no “order of operations” we can apply.

I’m wondering if there is a rules interpretation that can be applied.

Let's see, the citation was USA, then a mention of NFHS and a wrap-up with talking about the NCAA. BTW, speaking USA, any part of a player's body, uniform or equipment can be tagged by the defense for whatever reason necessary base upon the rule in discussion. Same with a pitched or batted ball or touching of a base
 
May 29, 2015
3,731
113
Yes! We do need to make sure are looking at each rule set as its own — thank you MTR!

The Touching definition was NFHS (I double checked it) but I’m still not sure what the USA reference is ...
 
Jun 7, 2019
170
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I am new to this forum, and I certainly don't want to start off on a bad foot. I've been an umpire for what seems like forever, and also a HS varsity coach for 19 years and travel coach for 20. I won't get into rule interpretations with any of you bc you can probably quote the book better than I can. But let's talk reality. Anybody who's spent any real time behind the plate knows that these things happen instantaneously, almost always within a second. The only situation given here that even had me thinking for a second was what if the ball went straight down, stayed down spinning and then stopped spinning and the batter ran into it. I can hardly remember any ball that goes straight down and stays there, spinning or not. But let's suppose the ball goes straight down and then bounces straight up. No movement toward the batter - just up and down. If the batter's first step takes her into the ball, there's not one umpire I know at any level who would call the batter out. It's just arms up over your head, and "Dead ball! Hit her in the box!" WHENEVER this has occurred, the only question a plate umpire ever might be asked would be if she was out of the box. If you do call an out on that play (unless it's a rec league game) you're going to take a ton of deserved heat if you call that batter out.
 

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